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Thread: WikiLeaks and the new "Pentagon Papers"

  1. #1

    Default WikiLeaks and the new "Pentagon Papers"

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/world/war-logs.html
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...military-leaks
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...708314,00.html

    WikiLeaks has released their massive trove of internal government documents, mostly about the war in Afghanistan. They collaborated with newspapers to release articles about the documents at the same time just now.

    While I respect WikiLeak's mission, I think releasing the documents on embargo to a variety of [sympathetic] news organizations pushes this too much into a media stunt. It's clear that publications such as the NYT and the Guardian want this to be the next "Pentagon Papers" that permanently changes how the public see the war in Afghanistan.

    Furthermore, when you pull a media stunt like this and clue-in all the big players, you start to get a lot of spin and you lose the ability to see how governments respond with advance notice. EG the White House already has a pretty lame line in place:

    In a statement, the White House said the chaotic picture painted by the logs was the result of "under-resourcing" under Obama's predecessor, saying: "It is important to note that the time period reflected in the documents is January 2004 to December 2009."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...military-leaks
    Pasting the NYTimes note to readers below. I think they are overall trying to be as scrupulous and responsible as can be when publishing information about detailed classified info. But I also think they (and all the publications involved) are very eagerly and jointly playing into a game with a very clear objective that makes me uncomfortable as a consumer of media.


    July 25, 2010
    Piecing Together the Reports, and Deciding What to Publish

    The articles published today are based on thousands of United States military incident and intelligence reports — records of engagements, mishaps, intelligence on enemy activity and other events from the war in Afghanistan — that were made public on Sunday on the Internet. The New York Times, The Guardian newspaper in London, and the German magazine Der Spiegel were given access to the material several weeks ago. These reports are used by desk officers in the Pentagon and troops in the field when they make operational plans and prepare briefings on the situation in the war zone. Most of the reports are routine, even mundane, but many add insights, texture and context to a war that has been waged for nearly nine years.

    Over all these documents amount to a real-time history of the war reported from one important vantage point — that of the soldiers and officers actually doing the fighting and reconstruction.

    The Source of the Material

    The documents — some 92,000 individual reports in all — were made available to The Times and the European news organizations by WikiLeaks, an organization devoted to exposing secrets of all kinds, on the condition that the papers not report on the data until July 25, when WikiLeaks said it intended to post the material on the Internet. WikiLeaks did not reveal where it obtained the material. WikiLeaks was not involved in the news organizations’ research, reporting, analysis and writing. The Times spent about a month mining the data for disclosures and patterns, verifying and cross-checking with other information sources, and preparing the articles that are published today. The three news organizations agreed to publish their articles simultaneously, but each prepared its own articles.

    Classified Information

    Deciding whether to publish secret information is always difficult, and after weighing the risks and public interest, we sometimes chose not to publish. But there are times when the information is of significant public interest, and this is one of those times. The documents illuminate the extraordinary difficulty of what the United States and its allies have undertaken in a way that other accounts have not.

    Most of the incident reports are marked “secret,” a relatively low level of classification. The Times has taken care not to publish information that would harm national security interests. The Times and the other news organizations agreed at the outset that we would not disclose — either in our articles or any of our online supplementary material — anything that was likely to put lives at risk or jeopardize military or antiterrorist operations. We have, for example, withheld any names of operatives in the field and informants cited in the reports. We have avoided anything that might compromise American or allied intelligence-gathering methods such as communications intercepts. We have not linked to the archives of raw material. At the request of the White House, The Times also urged WikiLeaks to withhold any harmful material from its Web site.

    Verification

    To establish confidence in the information, The Times checked a number of the reports against incidents that had been publicly reported or witnessed by our own journalists. Government officials did not dispute that the information was authentic.

    It is sometimes unclear whether a particular incident report is based on firsthand observation, on the account of an intelligence source regarded as reliable, on less trustworthy sources or on speculation by the writer. It is also not known what may be missing from the material, either because it is in a more restrictive category of classification or for some other reason.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/26/wo...tors-note.html

  2. #2
    Its wikileaks, serious underfunded and paranoid out the ass. They want to get as much publicly as possible from their work. Can't blame them on that front. What they release requires very little commentary considering the material.
    Surprised you didn't start a thread like this when they teamed with the Washington Post for their "lights on, rats out" document on Top Secret America.

    Government isn't exactly clueless about wikileak's operations either. They knew about Top Secret America for a few weeks before being published, and they knew about these cables from before they arrested the guy who leaked the collateral murder video of the helicopter killing innocent civilians (and they knew about that before wikileaks asked for supercomputer time to decrypt it)
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 07-26-2010 at 12:43 AM.

  3. #3
    My main interest is the media. I'm concerned with how they are very willingly taking part in a media stunt clearly designed to embarrass the US government.

    It would be one thing if WikiLeaks put the documents online and the papers started analyzing them. But doesn't this seem like taking things a step further towards hardcore advocacy journalism?

  4. #4
    The news media has always been about ratings, especially in these days when the print media is on the ropes.

  5. #5
    On the one hand, the government has no business classifying most of the information it classifies. On the other hand, it shouldn't be up to disgruntled employees to decide what should and should not be classified.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #6
    Totally true. If the employee gets busted, doubtlessly they'll pay the price.

    Generally I consider more transparency to be an unallayed good. I think the government WAY over-abuses this power. I can't summon any sadness when such BS is revealed, even if the action is illegal. But, if caught the leakers should be prosecuted. Their choice, their risk. If in their shoes, I'd need an awfully big justification to leak like that, but I can imagine circumstances in which I'd do so.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    Totally true. If the employee gets busted, doubtlessly they'll pay the price.

    Generally I consider more transparency to be an unallayed good. I think the government WAY over-abuses this power. I can't summon any sadness when such BS is revealed, even if the action is illegal. But, if caught the leakers should be prosecuted. Their choice, their risk. If in their shoes, I'd need an awfully big justification to leak like that, but I can imagine circumstances in which I'd do so.
    The last guy who released the info to WikiLeaks didn't get along with his workers and felt that he wasn't appreciated. Few people are so noble as to sacrifice their career for the common good.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #8

  9. #9
    http://gawker.com/5596908/the-wikile...cklash-is-here

    Interestingly, some are sniping that the documents don't amount to much of anything, unless you're one of the three publications that accepted (or were offered) the embargo.

    I'm not sure I quite agree with that on the content — after all, these are documents that people often don't get to inspect, and as Assange pointed out there are questionable incidents that get buried under bureaucracy that will inevitably have to be investigated to make a point about what is acceptable and what isn't.

    Putting aside for a moment how sober and rational he sounds in press conferences (versus the blatant editoralizing that goes alongside the publication of these documents and the "collateral murder" video), it seems no one else gives much of a damn about the posturing in the media. Oh well, everyone has their own obsessions.

  10. #10
    You know, I think that in principle the documents don't actually say anything we didn't know - yes, NATO kills civilians accidentally (and pretty much all of the cases so far uncovered seem to be unintentional or the result of miscommunication). Yes, Pakistan's ISI is heavily connected with Taliban insurgents, though the extent of that connection is to some extent dependent on who you ask (the documents most frequently cited are actually based on Afghan intelligence reports, which are obviously suspect). Yes, the war is going poorly and corruption is rampant.

    But the actual gems of interesting data are scant (of the surface analyses I've seen so far - no one has really had a chance to read all 90k pages yet). There's some bits in there about potential Taliban (or AQ?) interest in developing crude chemical weapons, some stuff about heat-seeking SAM use by insurgents (so far, only once successfully), some insight into relations between the Afghan government and the US military. In reality, though, most of this is tangential to the real thrust of the documents, which is an overall gestalt that the war is going poorly. I don't think anyone is particularly surprised about this, and as such I'm largely unimpressed by the comparisons to the 'Pentagon papers' and other more significant finds. (Notably, the US government didn't try all that hard to suppress the publication.)

    I think that the issue with Wikileaks is that the internet has precluded the need to provide documents to one or two news sources like in the past - mass distribution is cheap and easy nowadays. So why restrict early access to a few sources? I have to agree with you on this one - it's a stunt. That's not to say the documents are meaningless or not useful for a decent discussion about the ongoing war, but I think Wikileaks has been losing credibility for some time as a trusted arbiter of leaked documents - the SNR is awfully low in what they put out, and their analysis tends to be awfully biased (cue the argument over the helicopter footage). Couple with practices obviously meant more to make a splash than actually blow any whistles, I've generally learned to yawn when Wikileaks releases something now.

  11. #11
    One analysis [from a paper that didn't get an early peak].

    The fact that he went to the Guardian first really does speak volumes.

    WORLD NEWS | JULY 27, 2010
    WikiLeaks Rolled Dice to Raise Its Profile
    Website Collaborated With Mainstream Media on Afghan Leaks After Previous Scoops Failed to Win Enough Attention

    By JESSICA E. VASCELLARO

    WikiLeaks, frustrated at the lack of splash of recent leaks on its whistle-blowing website, has rolled the dice to try to raise its profile by teaming up with news organizations in its latest dump of classified documents.

    The site's secretive founder Julian Assange surfaced in London on Monday to give a rare news conference as part of that new strategy. The white-haired Australian computer hacker schooled a packed room of reporters on how to navigate the 76,000 documents just released, arguing they contained evidence of war crimes and could work as "deterrents" to further abuses.

    WikiLeaks was launched in 2007 by self-described Chinese dissidents and Internet hackers as a warehouse of leaked documents. Through its bare-bones site Wikileaks.org, it has landed big scoops, including its most infamous disclosure—video footage of American soldiers shooting down a group of people in Iraq in 2007. Representatives for the site have repeatedly declined to say how they obtain their material and their activities have prompted investigations by federal authorities.

    People familiar with the matter say Mr. Assange is frustrated that some of the site's other disclosures, such as a database of military procurements in Iraq and Afghanistan, didn't garner more attention. Some senior members of the group also want to combat the perception that the site is veering into the realm of opinion, one of the people said. The site took flak from some commentators for editing the 2007 Iraq video and for dubbing the video "Collateral Murder."

    Mr. Assange launched a new plan this summer in a Brussels cafe. He offered a U.K. newspaper, the Guardian, advance access to documents the site planned to release about the war in Afghanistan, according to the Guardian's account. They came up with a password for accessing the trove based on the logo on the cafe's napkins.

    Monday, the Guardian, along with the New York Times and German weekly Der Spiegel, published a flood of stories based on mostly raw field reports, citing WikiLeaks as the source. They say they weren't told how the site obtained them but tried to verify them independently.

    A spokesman for WikiLeaks said the group didn't pay for the leaked documents.

    Mr. Assange told reporters on Monday that he limited his outreach to these three organizations out of expediency and that more collaborations with traditional media are on the horizon. "We had hoped to partner with a network to do a more significant investigation, but limited time and resources eclipsed that," he said. "We do hope to do that next time."

    The release of the documents raises legal questions about WikiLeaks' approach and legal experts said the site could be investigated. The U.S. Constitution protects organizations that publish classified material if they did nothing to influence obtaining it, legal experts say.

    "It is clearly illegal, to put it bluntly, to steal classified documents. It is clearly protected by the First Amendment to publish documents obtained illegally as long as the publisher has not been involved in illegality," said Frederick Schauer, a law professor at the University of Virginia. "That is the lesson of the Pentagon Papers." In 1971, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the First Amendment allowed the New York Times and Washington Post to publish sections of the Pentagon Papers, a classified study of U.S. involvement in Vietnam.

    It might be difficult, said Jack Balkin, a Yale University law professor, for the Department of Justice to gain jurisdiction against a foreign entity like WikiLeaks, which has an Australian mailing address and is rumored to be based in Sweden. Even if it did—and then won a judgment against it—the judgment could be hard to enforce.

    WikiLeaks has long been shrouded in secrecy. At the beginning, its organizers were anonymous, soliciting documents and eventually vetting them before selecting what to put up, according to members of the group. More recently, Mr. Assange, who is in his late 30s, has emerged as its chief spokesman and refers to himself as the site's "editor-in-chief" and as a journalist. He and other organizers have been trying to raise money for lawyers and to keep the site functioning. Monday, the site was inaccessible much of the day, overwhelmed by traffic.

    Bob Steele, the director of the Prindle Institute for Ethics at DePauw University, said that if WikiLeaks founders are fashioning themselves as journalists, they should be more open and transparent about their methods.

    Mr. Assange said on Monday that WikiLeaks had controlled the embargo date. The New York Times and the Guardian said the publications worked independently. Each also said WikiLeaks had no involvement in the publication of their articles.

    The editors discussed the WikiLeaks deal among themselves, Mr. Assange said. Guardian reporter Nick Davies brokered arrangements to an editor at the Guardian who reached out to Der Spiegel and the New York Times.

  12. #12
    I don't think the people's "right to know" supersedes the military's right not to be compromised - and I don't think a disgruntled employee and some schmucks with a website have the right to determine what people have a right to know or not.

    I mean, do you people want extra dead soldiers just to fill your need to know everything? They may have volunteered for it, but hell - no need to waste them.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  13. #13
    Lolli - there's very little of operational or security significance in these papers as far as I can tell. I don't think much of the data was endangering anyone. It might have if it were published when it was new, but now it's largely unimportant from an operational perspective. The strategic factors are of course tougher to figure out - how it will impact public opinion, US-Pakistan relations, etc. In my opinion, though, stories like this has a much more important effect on troop safety (and chances of overall success) in Afghanistan than any leaked documents. Until the US can find a credible partner in the Afghan government and security forces, any attempts at stabilizing the country will be for naught.

  14. #14
    Just Floatin... termite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post
    I don't think the people's "right to know" supersedes the military's right not to be compromised - and I don't think a disgruntled employee and some schmucks with a website have the right to determine what people have a right to know or not.

    I mean, do you people want extra dead soldiers just to fill your need to know everything? They may have volunteered for it, but hell - no need to waste them.
    None of these documents are putting soldiers in direct danger, the most recent document is 8 months old and has no relevance to today's operations.

    I'm not a wiki-leaks fan but I also know that when it comes to long military campaigns the dirty secrets inevitably stack up - some of these should be revealed while others are just more fodder for low-brow journalism. I'd say that from what I've seen wiki-leaks hasn't caused the military operations much concern.

    Rolling Stone magazine however is another story...
    Such is Life...

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post
    I don't think the people's "right to know" supersedes the military's right not to be compromised - and I don't think a disgruntled employee and some schmucks with a website have the right to determine what people have a right to know or not.

    I mean, do you people want extra dead soldiers just to fill your need to know everything? They may have volunteered for it, but hell - no need to waste them.
    You've got to be joking. Show me anything that jeopardizes troops.

    The government way over-classifies stuff largely for political motives. It's like the boy who cried wolf, and nobody takes them seriously any more. Doubtlessly there is some stuff that should be classified. Whether some civilians were killed on a day 5 years ago ain't one of them. In fact, that SHOULD be made public. We are a democracy, and have a right to transparency unless the transparency would result in a direct threat. making our country less democratic defeats the whole friggin purpose!

  16. #16
    The Pentagon is reviewing tens of thousands of classified battlefield reports made public this week about the war in Afghanistan to determine whether Afghan informants were identified and could be at risk of reprisals, American officials said Wednesday.

    A Pentagon spokesman, Col. David Lapan, said that a Pentagon assessment team had not yet drawn any conclusions, but that “in general, the naming of individuals could cause potential problems, both to their physical safety or willingness to continue support to coalition forces or the Afghan government.”

    A search by The New York Times through a sampling of the documents released by the organization WikiLeaks found reports that gave the names of dozens of Afghans credited with providing credible information to American and NATO troops.

    The Times and two other publications given access to the documents — the British newspaper The Guardian and the German magazine Der Spiegel — posted online only selected examples from documents that had been redacted to eliminate names and other information that could be used to identify people at risk. The news organizations did this to avoid jeopardizing the lives of informants.

    The founder of WikiLeaks, Julian Assange, has said that the organization withheld 15,000 of the approximately 92,000 documents in the archive that was released on Sunday to remove the names of informants in what he called a “harm minimization” process. But the 75,000 documents WikiLeaks put online provide information about possible informants, like their villages and in some cases their fathers’ names.

    Asked on NBC’s “Today” show on Wednesday if the killing of an Afghan as a result of the WikiLeaks disclosure would be considered “collateral damage” in his efforts to make details of the war public, Mr. Assange said, “If we had, in fact, made that mistake, then, of course, that would be something that we would take very seriously.”

    Speaking in Kabul on Thursday, the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, called the disclosure of the names of Afghans who had cooperated with NATO and American forces "extremely irresponsible and shocking."

    "Whether those individuals acted legitimately or illegitimately in providing information to the NATO forces, their lives will be in danger now," said Mr. Karzai, who spoke at a press conference just after he said he discussed the issue with his advisors. "Therefore we consider that extremely irresponsible and an act that one cannot overlook."
    continued
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  17. #17
    Washington (CNN) -- The top U.S. military officer said Thursday that Julian Assange, founder of WikiLeaks, was risking lives to make a political point by publishing thousands of military reports from Afghanistan.

    "Mr. Assange can say whatever he likes about the greater good he thinks he and his source are doing, but the truth is they might already have on their hands the blood of some young soldier or that of an Afghan family," Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, said at a news conference at the Pentagon.

    In equally stern comments and at the same session, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates said the massive leak will have significant impact on troops and allies, giving away techniques and procedures.

    "The battlefield consequences of the release of these documents are potentially severe and dangerous for our troops, our allies and Afghan partners, and may well damage our relationships and reputation in that key part of the world," Gates said. "Intelligence sources and methods, as well as military tactics, techniques and procedures will become known to our adversaries."

    Gates said the United States has been contacted by Afghanistan, Pakistan and "other governments" concerned about the leak. One of the lasting impacts, he said, is rebuilding trust that the U.S. military can keep secrets secret.


    Assange has refused to say where his whistle-blower website got about 91,000 United States documents about the war. Some 76,000 of them were posted on the site Sunday in what has been called the biggest leak since the Pentagon Papers about the Vietnam War.

    "I spent most of my life in the intelligence business, where the sacrosanct principle is protecting your sources. And that involves your sources trusting you to protect them and to protect their identities," Gates said. "That is one of the worst aspects of this, as far as I'm concerned. Will people trust us? Will people's whose lives are on the line trust us to keep their identities secret? Will other governments trust us to keep their documents and their intelligence secret?"

    Gates said he called the FBI director to partner with the Pentagon in investigating the leak.

    The defense secretary said the Pentagon is also reviewing procedures for handling classified information, which could affect the flow of valuable information to troops.

    "In the wake of this incident, it will be a real challenge to strike the right balance between security and providing our frontline troops the information they need," Gates said. "We want those soldiers in a forward operating base to have all the information they possibly can have that impacts on their own security but also being able to accomplish their mission."

    Perhaps surprisingly, the defense secretary said it was "only very recently" that he was made aware of the magnitude of the number of documents" that had been leaked. One of the main suspects in the current document leak investigation, according to military officials, had been arrested back in the spring and eventually charged with downloading thousands of documents and a video of a 2007 airstrike in Iraq that was published earlier this year by WikiLeaks.

    Gates said the defense department did not know how many more documents were out there.

    "The reality is, at this point, we don't know how many more there are out there ... it could be a substantial additional number of documents, and we have no idea what their content is, either," he said.

    For those put at risk by the documents, the defense secretary said the U.S. has a "moral obligation" to protect those whose names appear in the documents.

    WikiLeaks' founder has said the organization held back thousands of documents in order to redact information that could put people at risk. But CNN's own review of documents found instances of names of informants and those who cooperated against the Taliban, as well as names of suspected insurgents who were being watched.
    Source

    I'm on lolli's side on this. Though I'm a bit surprised that lolli's on lolli's side. You can't release that many classified documents about this kind of subject without putting missions and lives at risk. Not only is it doing that, but it makes it harder to convince others to help us out now because they could have their names exposed and be in similar jeopardy.

  18. #18
    There was an article about the WikiLeaks editor on BBC. The guy basically said that he doesn't give a damn about the concept of national security and it's up to states to protect themselves, not him.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Source

    I'm on lolli's side on this. Though I'm a bit surprised that lolli's on lolli's side. You can't release that many classified documents about this kind of subject without putting missions and lives at risk. Not only is it doing that, but it makes it harder to convince others to help us out now because they could have their names exposed and be in similar jeopardy.
    Good. I've always thought it was good to leave people guessing.

    I have a delightfully smart-assed comment to make now, but I guess I'll skip it to avoid starting a bunch of nasty drama that will escalate.

    You just can't know what the ramifications are of releasing classified documents. And the consequences don't have to be immediate for them still to have an effect.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  20. #20
    Lolli - I think that a good point was made about the potential danger to Afghans who help in the US war effort. Yet I'm skeptical that the documentation is that good about who they are, and so far the AQ/Taliban response to the papers hasn't even mentioned the possibility of using it to carry out revenge attacks on 'collaborators' (they've spent plenty of time talking about other aspects of the documents, though I doubt any of them read the documents). That being said, it's definitely something these guys should have thought about before publishing the documents - I think the danger to US servicemen is far less, though. Nonetheless, a very good point.

    I'm afraid that I don't agree with the assertions in Wraithy's article, though. People will be afraid of sharing information with us now that they know we leak like a sieve? First, people have known that for a long time. Second, the US is the only game in town when it comes to intelligence sharing. The really secret stuff probably would never have been leaked (given that access to the information would be tightly limited) and everything else is hardly much better than open source intelligence. I'm very unconvinced - I just think Mullen and Gates are pissed and letting people know it.

    I'm similarly unconcerned about the information released vis-a-vis US tactics. Please, embeds give much more detailed accounts than the leaked documents I've seen - the 'diary' is mostly lists of engagements without any of the context. Given that Taliban/insurgent forces have been in near-constant contact with NATO forces for years, I doubt there's much about our tactics that would surprise them.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I'm afraid that I don't agree with the assertions in Wraithy's article, though. People will be afraid of sharing information with us now that they know we leak like a sieve? First, people have known that for a long time. Second, the US is the only game in town when it comes to intelligence sharing. The really secret stuff probably would never have been leaked (given that access to the information would be tightly limited) and everything else is hardly much better than open source intelligence. I'm very unconvinced - I just think Mullen and Gates are pissed and letting people know it.
    A lot of the assets that were compromised by this seem to be fairly ground level. There's a good chance they didn't know the US is kinda leaky, or that whatever they did know about it wouldn't register too strongly. High profile things like this probably do more harm in this area than lower profile but more compromising leaks.

    What I think it comes down to is this: was it worth it? Was there anything in these documents that needed to become public badly enough to make it worth the risk and harm done by releasing them? So far as I can tell, the answer seems to be no.

  22. #22
    Just Floatin... termite's Avatar
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    Shoot the messenger, never mind questioning the incompetence of the US and it's myriad of agencies responsible for leaking like a sieve.
    Such is Life...

  23. #23
    Both of them are problems. The security has holes, the guy who stole the docs should face jail time, and the wikileaks people are irresponsible for publishing it. The problem could have been stopped at any point along the line of hand-offs, but it wasn't.

  24. #24
    An intelligence analyst based in the Middle East downloading this information, packaging it and sending it to WikiLeaks isn't exactly "leaking like a sieve". Obviously systemic safeguards need to be re-examined, but it's not like someone from "the outside" broke into these files. Someone with access (justified or not) took them and delivered them to Mr. Julian "Jetset" Assange.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    A lot of the assets that were compromised by this seem to be fairly ground level. There's a good chance they didn't know the US is kinda leaky, or that whatever they did know about it wouldn't register too strongly. High profile things like this probably do more harm in this area than lower profile but more compromising leaks.
    I don't think the argument of Gates et al is that individuals will be scared of going to the US with information any more (in fact many collaborators are already found and executed in Afghanistan and Iraq, as in many other nasty parts of the world). Rather, they argue that other intelligence agencies and nations will be wary of sharing information with the US.

    What I think it comes down to is this: was it worth it? Was there anything in these documents that needed to become public badly enough to make it worth the risk and harm done by releasing them? So far as I can tell, the answer seems to be no.
    Agreed. There's hardly some important piece of evidence in there that no one knows about. I have yet to read anything that was surprising to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    An intelligence analyst based in the Middle East downloading this information, packaging it and sending it to WikiLeaks isn't exactly "leaking like a sieve". Obviously systemic safeguards need to be re-examined, but it's not like someone from "the outside" broke into these files. Someone with access (justified or not) took them and delivered them to Mr. Julian "Jetset" Assange.
    I actually don't think these papers are particularly sensitive. Yet there are routine leaks about much more important matters, and there have been for decades. Some of them are probably deliberate, but many others are not. The US intelligence/defense/political establishment is just so big that it's inevitable that important information will get out. Most of it is more embarrassing than dangerous, though.

  26. #26

  27. #27
    Investigators have found concrete evidence on computers used by Pfc. Bradley Manning that link him with the leak of classified Afghanistan war reports, a U.S. defense official said.

    The disclosure came as Defense Secretary Robert Gates pledged Thursday to "aggressively investigate the leak" and find ways to prevent further breaches, and told reporters that he had invited the Federal Bureau of Investigation to assist the probe.

    Friends and acquaintances of Pfc. Manning's in Oklahoma said they were interviewed by Army and State Department investigators last month, who asked whether they had received email or packages from Pfc. Manning.

    The 22-year-old private worked in intelligence operations in Baghdad. He was supposed to be examining intelligence relevant to Iraq, but defense officials said Pfc. Manning used his "Top Secret/SCI" clearance to tap into documents around the world.

    A search of the computers yielded evidence he had downloaded the Afghanistan war logs, the defense official said. It isn't clear precisely what that evidence is. Investigators combing through Pfc. Manning's computers also found other classified material that has not been made public, the same official said.

    Defense officials said the FBI was investigating whether civilians aided Pfc. Manning in providing the information to WikiLeaks, a Web-based group that this week released 76,000 secret reports from Afghanistan.

    Pfc. Manning already was charged by the military in July with illegally taking secret State Department files and disseminating a classified video, which defense officials said was the one released by WikiLeaks showing a U.S. military helicopter firing on a group of people in Baghdad. Two Reuters journalists and seven others were killed in the 2007 incident.

    ...

    When Mr. Davis, the childhood friend, last saw Pfc. Manning about nine months ago, Mr. Davis said he could sense a change in his friend, who he said "wasn't having an easy time" in the military and "felt he wasn't being treated fairly."

    Pfc. Manning was demoted from specialist to private first class while in Iraq for an incident unrelated to the leak, a defense official said.

    ...
    Source

    So it sounds like they have the guy who was leaking. He also looks like the guy who was responsible for WikiLeaks last big thing. Sounds like he was just a disgruntled employee lashing out too.

  28. #28
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/09/us...agewanted=1&hp

    I wonder how the WikiLeaks people justify taking advantage of a troubled guy for their personal gain.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #29
    I can't really fault them for that, I mean this guy just handed them these documents on a platter.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I can't really fault them for that, I mean this guy just handed them these documents on a platter.
    But they're supposed to be a beacon of morality. They basically destroyed the life of someone they knew was troubled just to get some juicy documents. Is this really any different to terrorist groups getting mentally ill people to become suicide bombers?
    Hope is the denial of reality

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