China, slavery and US jobs

[ar81]

Microsoft Mouse Supplier Accused of Virtually Imprisoning Workers

Slaves are cheaper than regular workers.
If chinese compete for jobs, having slaves makes the competition unfair.
As far as it is my concern, i will not buy Microsoft mouse.

[littlelolligagged]

Your loss, my Microsoft mouse is the most awesome thing ever (other than my Microsoft keyboard with the curves).

[ar81]

Americans and Europe should fight slavery at all costs.
The price for not doing this is losing jobs.

[Ominous Gamer]

Razer > Logitech > Microsoft

Also
pics or it didn't happen:

The mostly female workers, aged 18 to 25, work from 7.45am to 10.55pm, sometimes with 1,000 workers crammed into one 105ft by 105ft room.
They are not allowed to talk or listen to music, are forced to eat substandard meals from the factory cafeterias, have no bathroom breaks during their shifts and must clean the toilets as discipline, according to the NLC.
The workers also sleep on site, in factory dormitories, with 14 workers to a room. They must buy their own mattresses and bedding, or else sleep on 28in-wide plywood boards. They 'shower' with a sponge and a bucket.
And many of the workers, because they are young women, are regularly sexually harassed, the NLC claimed.

Sounds like fun times

[termite]

Oh, I didn't get rich by writing a lot of checks!

-Bill Gates

[CitizenCain]

Your loss, my Microsoft mouse is the most awesome thing ever (other than my Microsoft keyboard with the curves).

Only because you haven't used a mouse/keyboard combo that's actually any good.

My wireless Logitech one is better than sex. Well, better than bad sex. The only way I could be convinced to switch to an M$ one is if I got a personal tour of that Chinese factory with all the cute Asian sex slaves.

[Wraith]

The Microsoft stuff isn't fancy, but I always felt that for the most part they were more comfortable. I've got a Logitech G15 keyboard right now, but I honestly only use it because I paid money for it before I realized it wasn't as comfortable as the old Microsoft keyboard I had. Also, LCD screen. Unfortunately MS seems to really like going the wireless route, and I still don't trust that newfangled technology. Wired for me, damnit.

[littlelolligagged]

Only because you haven't used a mouse/keyboard combo that's actually any good.

My wireless Logitech one is better than sex. Well, better than bad sex. The only way I could be convinced to switch to an M$ one is if I got a personal tour of that Chinese factory with all the cute Asian sex slaves.

I hated my wireless Logitech mouse. It always behaved screwy.

[Timbuk2]

I forked out for a wireless MS IntelliMouse recently that would sputter and pause on the screen. Hopeless.

Young enslaved Asian wimmin make defective products.

If people and children are going to be enslaved in piss-poor conditions it should at least be for a productive reason.

[EyeKhan]

What? Slavery in Chinese export factories? No no no no. Globalization = Good For Poor Countries. Duh, haven't you read the Conventional Wisdom Talking Points? Loki, Dread, Rand? You need to have those stickied.

[ar81]

A job in the hand of a slave is a job that is not in the hands of a free person.
Lower wages of slaves create pressure to lower wages of free people.

[EyeKhan]

A job in the hand of a slave is a job that is not in the hands of a free person.

By mutually exclusive definition.

Lower wages of slaves create pressure to lower wages of free people.

Lower wage labor available anywhere - slave or not - creates downward pressure on higher wage jobs... (yes, depending on skill level required... smart asses )

[ar81]

Even a very skilled slave would be paid a lower wage, pushing wages of free people down.

[Dreadnaught]

What? Slavery in Chinese export factories? No no no no. Globalization = Good For Poor Countries. Duh, haven't you read the Conventional Wisdom Talking Points? Loki, Dread, Rand? You need to have those stickied.

When we were a developing country with kids working in textile mills, did the British or French stop trading with us until we treated workers better? No, the economy grew, worker choice increased and workers demanded better working conditions.

And especially in a place like China, I think it's important for people to domestically demand better work conditions instead of face punitive trade restrictions that will just be painted as an affront to the Glorious Chinese Nation.

[Being]

When we were a developing country with kids working in textile mills, did the British or French stop trading with us until we treated workers better? No, the economy grew, worker choice increased and workers demanded better working conditions.

Mother Jones got support from abroad.

And especially in a place like China, I think it's important for people to domestically demand better work conditions instead of face punitive trade restrictions that will just be painted as an affront to the Glorious Chinese Nation.

Really? You think Chinese workers should join in collective bargaining?

[EyeKhan]

When we were a developing country with kids working in textile mills, did the British or French stop trading with us until we treated workers better? No, the economy grew, worker choice increased and workers demanded better working conditions.

And especially in a place like China, I think it's important for people to domestically demand better work conditions instead of face punitive trade restrictions that will just be painted as an affront to the Glorious Chinese Nation.

Dude, when kids were working our factories, they were working the Brit and French factories too. The labor movement is the only thing that got better working conditions and you hate that.

[CitizenCain]

And especially in a place like China, I think it's important for people to domestically demand better work conditions instead of face punitive trade restrictions that will just be painted as an affront to the Glorious Chinese Nation.

Yeah, but the problem with that, especially in a place like China, is that people who complain tend to disappear. And even in a poor country where that's not the case, you've still got several million starving people who'd gladly take your place working 12 hour days with no bathroom breaks for 17 dollars a month, because it beats starving.

[Loki]

Dude, when kids were working our factories, they were working the Brit and French factories too. The labor movement is the only thing that got better working conditions and you hate that.

Actually, no. What got better working conditions was higher per capita income. After a point, families no longer needed to send their children to work. You have far too much faith in the ability of a government to keep people from working, especially if you look at governments in the 19th century.

[Being]

Actually, no. What got better working conditions was higher per capita income. After a point, families no longer needed to send their children to work. You have far too much faith in the ability of a government to keep people from working, especially if you look at governments in the 19th century.

Quoted for posterity.

[Dreadnaught]

Really? You think Chinese workers should join in collective bargaining?

Dude, when kids were working our factories, they were working the Brit and French factories too. The labor movement is the only thing that got better working conditions and you hate that.

Collective bargaining in itself isn't a problem, so sure. Though it should ideally be a means to an end, which is a dynamic, fluid workforce where people can demand (and get) more based on their individual talents.

But I think a better, more developed economy and civil society is what has made working conditions better for the most people over time.

[Being]

Collective bargaining in itself isn't a problem, so sure.

I am at a loss for words.

[Nessus]

When we were a developing country with kids working in textile mills, did the British or French stop trading with us until we treated workers better? No, the economy grew, worker choice increased and workers demanded better working conditions.

And especially in a place like China, I think it's important for people to domestically demand better work conditions instead of face punitive trade restrictions that will just be painted as an affront to the Glorious Chinese Nation.

Cute, but supporting 1 point Finagle only knows how many billion Chinese living like obese American mole-rats isn't something the globe can readily support.

[Dreadnaught]

I am at a loss for words.

I've never said collective bargaining is wrong, I just think unions as organizations are generally corrosive to our economy and government. And I think government employee unions should be illegal.

Cute, but supporting 1 point Finagle only knows how many billion Chinese living like obese American mole-rats isn't something the globe can readily support.

That's an environmental issue, not a labor condition issue.

And after my trip to China, I'm inclined to agree with you. Then again, I'm also inclined to believe that smarter growth is possible than in China, where trying to pressure companies to stop polluting is usually met with a swift beating or jail sentence.

[Being]

I've never said collective bargaining is wrong, I just think unions as organizations are generally corrosive to our economy and government. And I think government employee unions should be illegal.

How do you expect collective bargaining to take place without a collective (ie, union)?

[Dreadnaught]

Unions are just legally-protected cliques that emerge from collective bargaining. Any given group of employees can use their numbers to gain leverage over issues. Any given individual employee can use the threat of losing talent for leverage.

[Being]

Unions are just legally-protected cliques that emerge from collective bargaining. Any given group of employees can use their numbers to gain leverage over issues. Any given individual employee can use the threat of losing talent for leverage.

Unions are collectives that pay for an administration to coordinate the efforts of all the individuals. How well do you think a union such as the United States of America would fair without that layer of administration? By your standard, it's fine for the states to work together as long as they don't pay for a federal government to coordinate the efforts.

[Dreadnaught]

The United States of America is not a labor union.

Also, moving to Debate subforum.

[Being]

The United States of America is not a labor union.

What's your point? Mine is that you are advocating something for China that repulses you in your own neck of the woods.

[CitizenCain]

There's a difference between a labor union which fights to get their workers bathroom breaks... and a labor union which demands an average of $150,000 a year in compensation for monkey work.

[Nessus]

That's an environmental issue, not a labor condition issue.

You make it sound as if I interrupted an intricate waltz with a sledgehammer.

The worker's rights issues tie in to the demands for a higher standard of living, and guess which nation has propagandised itself as the modern Xanadu? The labour condition issue leads to environmental issues when they all want four-inch steak wrapped in candied bacon and served with a side of McDee's.

And after my trip to China, I'm inclined to agree with you. Then again, I'm also inclined to believe that smarter growth is possible than in China, where trying to pressure companies to stop polluting is usually met with a swift beating or jail sentence.

Cup of water in an ocean