TPP

[EyeKhan]

I just read that Trump signed an executive order today withdrawing from the Trans Pacific Partnership. The action was described as largely symbolic, but it got me thinking about what the TPP really is and is intended to do...

Please, if any of this is flat out wrong, help me understand:

My understanding is the TPP is intended to keep the US in a leadership role in regards to Pacific regional trade, which we've had since the end of WW2 --- more specifically, to counter any bid from China to take some or all of that role from the US. It's a "free-trade" agreement that sets in place a bunch of trade rules and, most basically, is intended to free up capital to move around without facing tariff barriers, and/or make remaining barriers highly limited and predictable. And the argument for the TPP, in answer to those who recognize that freeing capital to move around like that all-too-often fucks over workers in the US, is that those rules are coming no matter what, and it's in the US's, including the fucked-over worker's, interests to lead their development, rather than letting China do it. Is this more or less correct?

Further, I'm familiar with, and have largely agreed with, the argument that expanded trade and economic inter-dependency between powerful nations not only increases prosperity for all nations involved, but also raises the cost of war between nations, so that they are much less likely to go to war.

So.... if this is true, (and I have to ask how much of the Peace preservation and the rules are coming no matter what bits of it are objectively verified as true - if that's even possible), if its true, then what in the world does our nation have to gain by scrapping the TPP?

[RandBlade]

It's basically a transpacific NAFTA on steroids. By lowering barriers it increases competition and the potential for international trade. For those of us who believe in liberal economics that is a very good thing.

Unfortunately Trump is a protectionist that doesn't seem to have learnt the lessons of Smoot-Hawley and thinks that competition is a bad thing. Hence TPP is dead, RIP.

The rules are not coming no matter what. If Trump wants to shut America off to the world he can do so and there's nothing China can say or do about it. There's no way to stop someone with a loaded gun from pointing it at their own temple and pulling the trigger.

[Ominous Gamer]

The thing is like 5000 pages long so anyone who thinks they understand it in its entirety is god damn fool.

That being said, there was a bunch of push back for how bad the copyright portions of the tpp were. Especially concerning DRM, removing exceptions to the DMCA, and criminal charges for stuff going viral

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/1...digital-rights

[Khendraja'aro]

Unfortunately Trump is a protectionist that doesn't seem to have learnt the lessons of Smoot-Hawley and thinks that competition is a bad thing. Hence TPP is dead, RIP.

So, how's that UK-US-deal coming along?

[RandBlade]

Looking positive, far greater chance than TTIP has.

[Khendraja'aro]

Right The cognitive dissonance is strong with*this one.

[RandBlade]

No, the news is strong with this one. He's outright said he wants a deal with us.

[RandBlade]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa...-idUKKBN14Z0XU
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rs-moving.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-cuts-tariffs/
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...uk-immigration
http://www.politico.eu/article/trump...eal-this-week/

"Cognitive dissonance"

[Wraith]

I'm just looking forward to watching the internet's hivemind switch from being virulently opposed to it to thinking it was actually a pretty good idea.

[RandBlade]

[Hazir]

The funny thing is, I think it probably was a good deal especially for the USA.

[Steely Glint]

I'm just looking forward to watching the internet's hivemind switch from being virulently opposed to it to thinking it was actually a pretty good idea.

It's TTIP the internet hates, isn't it? I've never heard of this bloody TPP thing.

In any case, I think you'd be surprised at the internet hivemind being nothing of the sort, though. A lot of the Berniebro/Bob Marley Dorm Room Poster demographic who are the most obsessively against TTIP seem to have this weird quasi-sympathy for Trump and what he represents - a lot of chat in those circles during the primary to the effect that 'at least Trump's anti-establishment'. To be fair: a lot of them also can't stand the motherfucker, of course.

Also see: the connection between Assange/wikileaks and Trump.

[Echovirus]

TTP is the one that the Internet was raging against after the leaks of the IP parts of the agreement. I've never even heard of TTIP mentioned outside of this site.

[Hazir]

That's odd, we have had demonstrations in Europe that dwarfed the attendance at the inauguration of Trump.

[Wraith]

It's TTIP the internet hates, isn't it? I've never heard of this bloody TPP thing.

In any case, I think you'd be surprised at the internet hivemind being nothing of the sort, though. A lot of the Berniebro/Bob Marley Dorm Room Poster demographic who are the most obsessively against TTIP seem to have this weird quasi-sympathy for Trump and what he represents - a lot of chat in those circles during the primary to the effect that 'at least Trump's anti-establishment'. To be fair: a lot of them also can't stand the motherfucker, of course.

Also see: the connection between Assange/wikileaks and Trump.

It's no surprise that you've heard much more about the TTIP - that's always seemed to be a bigger issue in European corners of the net. TPP has always been more of an American-specific thing to rail against. I am surprised you haven't heard of it before though; before the election was in full swing, it seemed to be the new SOPA - it was constantly be talked about, write your congressman, here's another reason it's bad, etc. etc. It even reused some of the same rhetoric with the occasional addition of some American Hegemony and they'll-take-our-jobs type stuff, and I've more than once seen it literally called the new SOPA. It seemed to be a significant talking point to Bernie supporters especially. I don't think I've ever seen a pro-TPP article or posting (to be fair, I never actively looked). It disappeared for a while in the election wackiness, though.

I know the hivemind comment was hyperbolic, and even just using the plural would have been more accurate. I'm just continually frustrated with how frequently people treat whatever the current consensus is as an indisputable truth, even given how frequently and often arbitrarily that truth changes.

[Loki]

Unless I'm confusing TTIP with TPP, some trade economists looked at the language of standard American trade agreements and compared it to this one: they found 90% of the language matched what America usually includes in its agreements, a much higher percentage than what is true for the other signatories.

[RandBlade]

It's TTIP the internet hates, isn't it? I've never heard of this bloody TPP thing.

In any case, I think you'd be surprised at the internet hivemind being nothing of the sort, though. A lot of the Berniebro/Bob Marley Dorm Room Poster demographic who are the most obsessively against TTIP seem to have this weird quasi-sympathy for Trump and what he represents - a lot of chat in those circles during the primary to the effect that 'at least Trump's anti-establishment'. To be fair: a lot of them also can't stand the motherfucker, of course.

Also see: the connection between Assange/wikileaks and Trump.

TTIP is a big deal here because we're in Europe so it's the one that would affect us.

TPP is a Pacific agreement between virtually the whole of North America and South East Asia and Australasia (40% of the global economy). For my Australian friends TPP was the big deal. For Americans both were relevant but TPP was closer to being ratified so probably would have had more hate.

[RandBlade]

The funny thing is, I think it probably was a good deal especially for the USA.

Indeed, especially I believe where it came to copyright law where the signatories basically agreed to keep the copyright law in lockstep with American laws.

[EyeKhan]

That's odd, we have had demonstrations in Europe that dwarfed the attendance at the inauguration of Trump.

We had demonstrations all over the US, next day, that dwarfed the attendance at the inauguration of Trump. Unless you listen to the flat-out lies of Trump's press secretary. Or, how did what's-her-name put it? His "alternative facts?" Something like that.

Edit:

From Factcheck.org today:

White House counselor Kellyanne Conway claimed that “alternative facts” were employed by Press Secretary Sean Spicer when he tried to make the case that “this was the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration, period, both in person and around the globe.” Actually, Spicer got several facts wrong.

[Khendraja'aro]

No, the news is strong with this one. He's outright said he wants a deal with us.

He also said he wants to build a wall on the border to Mexico.

[RandBlade]

He also said he wants to build a wall on the border to Mexico.

So good job I live in the UK and not Mexico.

[Khendraja'aro]

This may be a shocking surprise for you: Trump says a lot of stuff.

Doesn't mean that he'll actually do it. If he's as protectionistic as you fear he*is - why on earth do you think you'll get a good deal if any? Particularly in light of the fact that you're somewhat light on experienced foreign trade diplomats.

The US negotiators will*pull you over the barrel.

[RandBlade]

He seems especially protectionist with third world nations that undercut American factories not developed and modern white Anglo Saxon nations. Has he had a bad word to say about trade with Canada?

[Echovirus]

He's already stated he wants to renegotiate NAFTA. We all know he's targeting Mexico, but it's not like it'd be a shock for him to perceive some insult from Canada and seek to make things tough for them as well.

[RandBlade]

He's spoken about doing a deal with Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand. So doesn't precisely sound like he's against the Canadians. A common theme between those nations, a kith and kin deal has a lot of advantages.

[Hazir]

And that's going to go down just finewith all the non-white Americans, a government only having deals with predominantly white, english speaking nations. Racism as official government trade policy. Of course a Great White Brit wouldn't see the problem with that.

[LittleFuzzy]

And that's going to go down just finewith all the non-white Americans, a government only having deals with predominantly white, english speaking nations. Racism as official government trade policy. Of course a Great White Brit wouldn't see the problem with that.

Of course there are problems with that. But they're not problems which get in the way of a US/UK trade deal which you and Khend kept insisting was the case in your misinterpretation of the incoming administration's attitudes toward trade.

[RandBlade]

Exactly!

[Steely Glint]

Trump has at least one plausible motive for offering the UK a good free trade deal: it strengths the UK's position in the exit negotiations, and undermines the European Union by making following the UK's example seem like a plausible, attractive option for other nations. Combined with his repeated attempts to undermine NATO it appears as though Trump's made it his mission in life to undermine the institutions ensuring peace and stability in Europe.

So that's awesome*.

* it is not awesome

[Loki]

He'll do it as soon as you make Farage Queen.