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Thread: Israel should phase out American defense aid

  1. #1

    Default Israel should phase out American defense aid

    As I'm sure you are aware, the Israeli and American governments inked a Memorandum of Understanding this week pertaining to the next tranche of defense aid starting in 2018. The deal is more or less the same as previous deals; over ten years, the US commits to providing Israel with $3.8 billion worth of weaponry annually, a modest increase from the last ten-year deal (about $300 million). The roots of this American largesse are complex, but have a lot to do with the Camp David Accords which capped peace negotiations between Egypt and Israel. Given that Israel was giving up a great deal of strategic depth in the land-for-peace deal with Egypt, the United States committed to guaranteeing Israel's strategic edge over its neighbors by the supply of high end weapons systems, including recently developed F-15 and F-16 fighters as well as sophisticated missiles and armaments. (As a corollary, Egypt moved out of the Soviet orbit and became a US client state, themselves receiving a hefty defense and economic aid package.)

    Over the years, this aid has increased due to a variety of factors: first, US economic aid to Israel was phased out and replaced with further military aid as the Israeli economy grew stronger. Second, the increasing threat of ballistic and short range missile threats (first highlighted by Iraq in 1990/1991, followed by Hezbollah and Hamas) increased missile defense funding. Third, changing geopolitics - and the rising focus in the US on Middle Eastern instability and global terrorism - has dramatically increased supply of US arms to the region, resulting in a required increase in the quantity and quality of arms provided to Israel to maintains its technological advantage.

    This latest arms deal is an extension of this logic - a modest increase in spending that more or less keeps pace with inflation, a gradual phaseout of the amount of US aid allowed to be spent on Israeli weaponry (currently about 1/4 of the money can be spent in Israel; after the phaseout all of it must be spent in the US), the missile defense funding is formally folded into the aid budget rather than a separate appropriation, Israel commits to refraining from asking Congress for additional funds outside of wartime, and the agreement no longer allows Israel to purchase up to $400 million in 'military fuels' (typically JP-8 aviation fuel) as part of the aid. So, more or less the same as always with some modest changes.

    Both sides have had something to gain from this partnership - the US get frequent battlefield tests of their newest equipment, often against cutting edge Soviet bloc weaponry as well as leverage over an important regional ally (not to mention effective peace between Israel and her neighbors), while Israel got lots of free high end weapons systems and a boost to their economy. I have come to believe, however, that the US provision of arms to Israel is no longer in Israel's interests and they should aim to phase out US aid over the next ten years.

    My reasoning may be familiar in some respects but newer in others. First, there is no doubt that the Israeli government would feel the pinch. The aid amounts to roughly 1% of Israeli GDP, which means the budget deficit would either need to increase by a commensurate amount, the size of the budget would need to decrease by said amount (I think it would be something on the order of 5% of the entire government budget), or revenues would need to increase. This would not be a pleasant transition, akin to a modest austerity plan over a few years as the cuts/revenues were phased in. But as a gross measure of its effect on the economy and the budget, I think it would be muted; Israel's economy is fairly robust, government debt continues to fall as a proportion of GDP (now in the low 60s, I believe), and the adjustment need not be that great. Furthermore, I would imagine that it is possible that the fiscal adjustment might not need to be so dramatic - the military might find it could subsist without some of the highest end weapons.

    Secondly, I think the substitution effects of US aid on the domestic Israeli defense industry have been substantial. Israel has a highly sophisticated technology sector, including a number of well-respected defense firms, typically specializing in high-end electronics, radar systems, missile systems, cybersecurity, missile defense, and armored vehicles. They are conspicuously absent from combat aircraft, however, which is a major component of US aid to Israel. This is not because Israel does not have the resources or know-how to develop high performance combat aircraft - they extensively retrofit aircraft bought from the US (and from the French in the past) and had a domestic fighter jet project in the 80s - the IAI Lavi - that was cancelled due to pressure from the Americans to adopt the F-16 instead. Given the ongoing concern over the combat effectiveness of the F-35 as well as its ballooning price tag, one has to wonder if Israeli leaders are wishing they could instead focus their resources on lower cost and higher capability systems optimized for Israeli needs without needing much of the gadgets present on the F-35. For example, the F-35 is range-limited, can carry a very limited bomb load in stealth configuration, and has impenetrable software that Israel will not be able to modify. Israel's most pressing need for fighter aircraft is to act as close air support in uncontested airspace or against legacy air defense systems that they already have pretty solid EW countermeasures for (e.g. Syria). The one likely use for the F-35 might be deep penetration bombing raids, but the range limitations, poor ACM performance, and minimal weapons load make this a questionable buy. But Israel is likely to acquire at least 75 of the planes because, well, they are there and 'free'. Israel has a much more pressing need for (a) a low cost fighter-bomber as a souped-up F-16, (b) long range strike drones, and (c) an air superiority fighter with excellent BVR and ACM capabilities. All of these can be acquired at substantially lower cost, and likely domestically if the industry is allowed to develop. Some of these would likely be good export candidates, not to high end militaries like the US or UK focused on near-peer competitors, but to mid-range militaries that need cost-effective and high performance aircraft that are unlikely to be working in heavily contested airspace.

    The same basic argument about substitution could be made about a lot of the Israeli defense industry, and I think it's a worthwhile discussion. It's already a decent import earner for the country, but freed from the flow of cheap US arms and US-imposed restrictions, the defense industry could get a real boost, which would in turn further mitigate the economic and budgetary impact of the reduced aid.

    Third, I think Israeli military planners frequently plan for the wrong war because of the weapons they are given. Israel faces a lot of threats - strategic threats from near-peer and hostile neighbors, asymmetric threats from a variety of terrorist groups and quasigovernmental groups, as well as unconventional threats from Iran. Yet the Israeli military continues to be mainly built around high-intensity tank battles against Syrian and Egyptian forces. This isn't to say they should abandon this capability, but the value of a Merkava IV against Hezbollah or Hamas is limited at best, and utterly useless against Iran. Israel uses US solutions to a lot of their needs because, well, it's free, which means they often are stuck with weapons geared against near-peer adversaries. A rethink of their force structure might find space for substantial cost savings as well as opening up new discussions about how their defense posture should be established.

    Fourth, it frees Israel (to an extent) from American leverage. There is always the constant threat, rarely acknowledged, in US-Israel relations that US weapons shipments could stop, tomorrow. That would indeed be a compelling challenge for Israel to cope with, and I understand how Israel often acts as a toady to the US (or, when they don't, are portrayed as ungrateful children). An alliance of equals, rather than of the US with a client state, would dramatically improve Israel's relationship with the US and would allow for frank discussions about issues unencumbered by the $3.8 billion elephant in the room. Furthermore, it might tame some of the criticism leveled at the US-Israel relationship; take out the weapons, and it could become a more traditional relationship with a close ally rather than a contentious and transactional one.


    I am not suggesting that Israel and the US should cut ties - far from it. In reality, the US and Israel will continue to have a unique relationship - Israel is the only stable and democratic country in a massive region undergoing near-constant upheaval, and the US populace and government also feel a certain degree of responsibility and kinship with the country. So there will always be unique components to the relationship - US diplomatic cover in the UN, for example, close intelligence and military cooperation, close economic and cultural ties, etc. In fact, I have no doubt that Israel would continue to buy a wide variety of high-end American weapons because they are the best in the world, work well with Israeli systems and training, and meet important Israeli strategic needs. That's fine, and only to be expected. But if the military aid were phased out, they could start to interact as normal friends and allies, and the Israeli defense industry could develop what Israel needs, rather than what the US wants to sell.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  2. #2
    I'm not certain withdrawing one of the few, albeit mild, restraining influences on Israel's behaviour is such a swell idea.
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I'm not certain withdrawing one of the few, albeit mild, restraining influences on Israel's behaviour is such a swell idea.
    Israel has conducted major wars with minimal civilian casualties long before US aid became a factor. Israel is not a loose cannon requiring American restraint; rather, they are a country like any other that is facing substantial security threats. In fact, I would argue that the concern about withdrawal of American support is part of what causes Israel to choose short, sharp campaigns rather than lower intensity conflicts: they know that as soon as a war erupts the clock is ticking before the US starts pressuring them for a cease fire, so they immediately try to deplete their target banks and proceed aggressively with ground forces. A milder form of American influence might not be a bad thing.

    Furthermore, I'm not really arguing that Israel should be free of influence from its allies. That's not the point - the US will still have substantial influence on Israeli policymaking for the simple fact that they are tightly bound allies and the US still provides a great deal of diplomatic support for Israel. The point is that including billions of dollars of weapons in the equation makes the relationship far more transactional and less values-based. Not to be too crude, but if one were to pay one's significant other a stipend, it might change the dynamic of the relationship, no? I think it's easier for the US to press aggressively for changes in Israeli policies (at least privately) without sounding threatening if there isn't leverage. Similarly, it's easier for Israel to pick and choose where to disagree with the US - instead of having to determine what are the US's most important issues and try to craft responses that satisfy those needs, they can determine which needs are the most important for Israel and communicate that to their ally. It doesn't mean that the US will stop having influence on Israeli politics (or vice versa) - but it will be a relationship of equals.

    Finally, assuming you are not a fan of perceived aggressive Israeli behavior, wouldn't it make sense to stop provision of advanced weapons systems to them for free? Pricier weapons might make Israeli planners think twice about unnecessary military adventurism.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  4. #4
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    I don't quite understand the benefits for Israel of a more values based relationship over the present mixed values/transactional base. Israel isn't going to move out of the area any time soon and having the relationship with the one remaining super power seems to have the big advantage of its enemies knowing that the US will come to the aid of Israel, rather than working from the possibility that the US will come to the aid of Israel. It's a marginal difference, but not an immaterial difference.
    Congratulations America

  5. #5
    I'm imagining Putin sidling up to Israel from out of the shadows moments after the amicable "we'll still be friends for the sake of the kids" separation.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Israel has conducted major wars with minimal civilian casualties long before US aid became a factor. Israel is not a loose cannon requiring American restraint; rather, they are a country like any other that is facing substantial security threats. In fact, I would argue that the concern about withdrawal of American support is part of what causes Israel to choose short, sharp campaigns rather than lower intensity conflicts: they know that as soon as a war erupts the clock is ticking before the US starts pressuring them for a cease fire, so they immediately try to deplete their target banks and proceed aggressively with ground forces. A milder form of American influence might not be a bad thing.

    Furthermore, I'm not really arguing that Israel should be free of influence from its allies. That's not the point - the US will still have substantial influence on Israeli policymaking for the simple fact that they are tightly bound allies and the US still provides a great deal of diplomatic support for Israel. The point is that including billions of dollars of weapons in the equation makes the relationship far more transactional and less values-based. Not to be too crude, but if one were to pay one's significant other a stipend, it might change the dynamic of the relationship, no? I think it's easier for the US to press aggressively for changes in Israeli policies (at least privately) without sounding threatening if there isn't leverage. Similarly, it's easier for Israel to pick and choose where to disagree with the US - instead of having to determine what are the US's most important issues and try to craft responses that satisfy those needs, they can determine which needs are the most important for Israel and communicate that to their ally. It doesn't mean that the US will stop having influence on Israeli politics (or vice versa) - but it will be a relationship of equals.

    Finally, assuming you are not a fan of perceived aggressive Israeli behavior, wouldn't it make sense to stop provision of advanced weapons systems to them for free? Pricier weapons might make Israeli planners think twice about unnecessary military adventurism.
    I just checked the map of the west bank and it's still got Israeli settlements all over it.

    I checked the news and it looks like Israel is still involved in some kind of shenanigans involving the water supply that I still don't fully understand.

    It looks a lot like a slow motion stealth ethnic cleansing to me.

    Compared to that, Israel's military behaviour (which, objectively, probably compares favourably to that of the US, it doesn't go around initiating wars of choice with no plan for the aftermath, after all) isn't really much of an issue.
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  7. #7
    Interesting proposal. Even tho it's a small nation, stuck in the middle of middle-east conflict, Israel is mostly a very smart nation. They've embraced and incorporated technology faster/better than the US has. It's only a matter of time before US dollars for "defense aid" (ie, military) doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. We've already helped by funding Iron Dome projects.....but if Israel wants to be a more independent sovereign state, relying less on the US, they should definitely do that.

    But I'm not familiar with Israel's political environment, so....

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I'm imagining Putin sidling up to Israel from out of the shadows moments after the amicable "we'll still be friends for the sake of the kids" separation.
    Hadn't thought about that. It's sorta plausible.

    But Wiggin I think you're right about the mostly pork-barrel nature of the relationship. And Israel should pursue greater strategic independence. That said, the relationship does have substantial strategic benefits for both parties. And isn't there value in having a strategic focus on fighting a nation-to-nation territorial war? Maybe not a tank war, but wasn't the takeaway from the 2006 Hezbollah war that Israel needed to bulk-up on traditional combat capabilities because fighting Hezbollah was not like fighting Fatah?

  9. #9
    Only got a chance to respond in depth now; apologies. I think there are a lot of interesting points here, but I do want to mention one bit before I get started: despite my opinion, there is zero chance this will happen any time soon. After the deal was announced, Netanyahu's main political opponents criticized the deal - but not because he made it, rather because they thought he should have been able to get a better deal, with more money for domestic Israeli purchases and a bigger aid package overall. So this is mostly an intellectual exercise to see if my shift in thinking make any sense, rather than if it will actually happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I don't quite understand the benefits for Israel of a more values based relationship over the present mixed values/transactional base. Israel isn't going to move out of the area any time soon and having the relationship with the one remaining super power seems to have the big advantage of its enemies knowing that the US will come to the aid of Israel, rather than working from the possibility that the US will come to the aid of Israel. It's a marginal difference, but not an immaterial difference.
    I think there is a difference between the US giving Israel $3+ billion of weapons a year and Israel not having a reasonable guarantee of US aid in the event of an existential crisis. As it is, Israel will still have deep defense and political ties with their greatest ally. They will continue to purchase high end US weapons systems, will continue to collaborate on R&D in the defense industry, and will continue to have close operational and training relationships with the US military. Politically, Israel will continue to have a deep well of popular support in the US as well as the Congressional support that flows from it. I don't understand why Israel paying for a (more limited amount of) US weapons rather than being given said weapons would take away the close ties and the implicit US guarantee of Israel's existence. And I think that the political benefits from no longer being seen as a 'moocher' but as a partner in security could be substantial from both a domestic US as well as an international perspective. The US is annoyed with NATO allies and Europe in general because they feel they should now be producers, rather than consumers, of security. I think that in a more limited fashion Israel should consider a similar shift. They will never have the resources (or the limited threat environment) for the kind of security presence Europe should be able to project, but they can still take a more active security role in their immediate region - say, naval patrols in the Eastern Mediterranean, freedom of navigation operations in the Suez and Straits of Tiran, better integration into US air defense, missile defense, and ELINT operations, etc. I think that a shift in how Israel presents itself to the US could be very valuable and would change the dynamic of their discussions. Israel doesn't need to be a whiny teenager asking its parents for money; that is never a good relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I just checked the map of the west bank and it's still got Israeli settlements all over it.

    I checked the news and it looks like Israel is still involved in some kind of shenanigans involving the water supply that I still don't fully understand.

    It looks a lot like a slow motion stealth ethnic cleansing to me.

    Compared to that, Israel's military behaviour (which, objectively, probably compares favourably to that of the US, it doesn't go around initiating wars of choice with no plan for the aftermath, after all) isn't really much of an issue.
    Wow. I don't think that word means what you think it means. Israel's actions in the territories are far from perfect, but they hardly amount to anything approaching ethnic cleansing. Regardless, we can discuss this at another time. Fundamentally, I think your argument is somewhat problematic - for the most part Israel's actions in the West Bank (which appear to be your biggest concern about their 'unrestrained behavior') are not really driven by US military aid. US aid is used for high end weapons systems that really have little use in the day-to-day operations in the WB; that is mostly accomplished by light armor, dismounted patrols, and small arms (along with a very sophisticated intelligence and surveillance network). While I have no doubt that the ongoing US aid provides some sort of leverage over Israeli actions in the WB, the leverage is indirect at best. They can't threaten to take away a capability that would change Israel's actions in the WB, and few Israeli actions are egregious enough to justify more substantial pressure from the US. As it is, most of what the US does re: Israeli actions in the WB is public and private protests without any recourse to freezing military aid (there are handful of notable exceptions, generally some time in the past). I just don't think it's a very compelling argument in favor of the ongoing aid packages.

    That is especially true if you were to subscribe to the view of most of Israel's critics that while the day-to-day evils of occupation are of course awful, the true nature of Israeli brutality is revealed through their high intensity conflicts, generally in Gaza and Lebanon. These conflicts do use substantial US aid, especially air power and precision munitions, some artillery/MLRS systems, and missile defense systems, and produce the greatest opprobrium in the media (along with causing the greatest number of casualties). One might reasonably argue that if Israel had more limited access to these assets, their high intensity incursions would be fewer in number, more subdued in intensity, and shorter.

    (I obviously don't subscribe to this narrative, and it appears you don't either, which I find welcome but somewhat surprising given that the misery in Gaza in, say, 2014 far outstrips the day-to-day friction in the WB.)

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Interesting proposal. Even tho it's a small nation, stuck in the middle of middle-east conflict, Israel is mostly a very smart nation. They've embraced and incorporated technology faster/better than the US has. It's only a matter of time before US dollars for "defense aid" (ie, military) doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. We've already helped by funding Iron Dome projects.....but if Israel wants to be a more independent sovereign state, relying less on the US, they should definitely do that.

    But I'm not familiar with Israel's political environment, so....
    I don't think it's correct that the defense dollars don't mean much in the grand scheme of things; as I estimate above, it is still a substantial chunk of GDP. I just think that the benefits may no longer outweigh the costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Hadn't thought about that. It's sorta plausible.

    But Wiggin I think you're right about the mostly pork-barrel nature of the relationship. And Israel should pursue greater strategic independence. That said, the relationship does have substantial strategic benefits for both parties. And isn't there value in having a strategic focus on fighting a nation-to-nation territorial war? Maybe not a tank war, but wasn't the takeaway from the 2006 Hezbollah war that Israel needed to bulk-up on traditional combat capabilities because fighting Hezbollah was not like fighting Fatah?
    I am not convinced that Israel will develop a substantial defense relationship with Russia. In general Israel tries to maintain reasonably good relations with Russia for a number of pragmatic reasons, but they are not close defense partners and Israel uses nearly zero Russian technology; in fact, they spend most of their time working out how to destroy or interfere with Russian technology (often with reasonably good success).

    For the rest, I think the lessons of e.g. Lebanon were complex. It is true that much of Israel's training (though not capability) against a more conventional adversary armed with near-peer weaponry (e.g. advanced ATGMs) atrophied due to the heavy use of troops for patrol duties in the WB and along the borders rather than focusing on other threats. And there is value in maintaining a full spectrum of capabilities. Yet I think that sometimes those capabilities are dictated by what is on offer from the US rather than what is actually needed. I already mentioned the F-35 in my first post, but another example might be in tanks. Israel originally used British and American tanks for their first few decades. However, starting the 80s they started a domestic development project that has been quite successful - they have produced high-survivability armored vehicles that work well in the local terrain and address specific Israeli needs (including rather sophisticated active protection systems for use against ATGM-equipped infantry like Hezbollah or Hamas). On the other hand, Egypt - which faces no real near-peer adversary - has purchased a vast number of Abrams tanks from the US as part of their aid package. While these tanks are undoubtedly good at their job (generally, blowing up other tanks) they are largely useless for the Egyptian military. One could wonder what the Egyptian military might look like if they didn't have the option of cheaply acquiring hundreds of M1A1 tanks.

    Israel could do this because tanks are (relatively) cheap and they used most of the aid for more expensive assets. But I think the general argument might hold for other strategic needs. Maybe Israel would still buy high end fighters from the US, but either fewer or different mixes (maybe a land variant of the F/A 18 instead of F-35s? The Stealth Eagle?). Maybe they'd buy some European alternatives (e.g. the Typhoon or whatever). Maybe they'd build a domestic capability. Maybe they'd do all three, or none of the above! The point is that current Israeli strategic thinking is hampered by the weapons systems on offer. This filters down to how they design their force structure, how they train their troops, and how they fight wars. I would hope that if they were freed up to think more broadly about how to design their military, they might have smarter solutions than the current option.

    One thing I have really been impressed with about the US military in the last 15 years is that they are flexible. It's a big, messy organizations with lots of conflicting priorities and at times poor political guidance. But even so, they are able to relatively rapidly change their deployment, tactics, and equipment to address changing threats. Think about the deployment of armed drones, or MRAPs, or the JIEDDO. These were rapidly fielded to address a critical combat need - not without issues or political shenanigans, but impressive nonetheless. And combat tactics changed dramatically over the course of the wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The results might have been heavily variable, but what impresses me is the flexibility - it's an organization that despite its massive bureaucracy is able to institute substantial change when necessary. I think this is in part due to the strategic flexibility enjoyed by the Pentagon, having wide latitude to try out different approaches (a very large budget helps, too). Israel does not have this luxury, to a large part because so much of their procurement is tied up indefinitely in specific US weapons systems. I think a change is in order.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post

    I think there is a difference between the US giving Israel $3+ billion of weapons a year and Israel not having a reasonable guarantee of US aid in the event of an existential crisis. As it is, Israel will still have deep defense and political ties with their greatest ally. They will continue to purchase high end US weapons systems, will continue to collaborate on R&D in the defense industry, and will continue to have close operational and training relationships with the US military. Politically, Israel will continue to have a deep well of popular support in the US as well as the Congressional support that flows from it.

    I don't understand why Israel paying for a (more limited amount of) US weapons rather than being given said weapons would take away the close ties and the implicit US guarantee of Israel's existence. And I think that the political benefits from no longer being seen as a 'moocher' but as a partner in security could be substantial from both a domestic US as well as an international perspective.

    <snip>

    The US is annoyed with NATO allies and Europe in general because they feel they should now be producers, rather than consumers, of security. I think that in a more limited fashion Israel should consider a similar shift. They will never have the resources (or the limited threat environment) for the kind of security presence Europe should be able to project, but they can still take a more active security role in their immediate region - say, naval patrols in the Eastern Mediterranean, freedom of navigation operations in the Suez and Straits of Tiran, better integration into US air defense, missile defense, and ELINT operations, etc.

    I think that a shift in how Israel presents itself to the US could be very valuable and would change the dynamic of their discussions. Israel doesn't need to be a whiny teenager asking its parents for money; that is never a good relationship.
    If I replace Israel with Pakistan....would you draw the same conclusion? When nuclear weapons come into play, everything changes.

    At some point in time, having nuclear weapons will be like "building a bomb in the kitchen of your mom" today. Extremists will be able to instill fear because they'll have access to nuclear components, and they won't need any government cooperation.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    If I replace Israel with Pakistan....would you draw the same conclusion? When nuclear weapons come into play, everything changes.

    At some point in time, having nuclear weapons will be like "building a bomb in the kitchen of your mom" today. Extremists will be able to instill fear because they'll have access to nuclear components, and they won't need any government cooperation.
    I'm not entirely sure I understand your question. Pakistan's relationship with the US is very different from Israel's. In that case, there is very little in the way of shared values or principles; US aid to Pakistan (about half economic and half military) is almost entirely transactional in order to assure specific US strategic needs - a partner of sorts in confronting Islamist terrorism, US funds to secure Pakistani nuclear sites and command/control systems, some level of restrain vis-a-vis India, humanitarian aid, etc. It is a much more fraught relationship.

    I'm not really sure where nukes come into the equation - both Pakistan and Israel have nuclear weapons. Yes, part of US aid to Pakistan is to help secure their nukes (we actually give aid to several countries to help secure military and civilian nuclear sites as part of our nonproliferation regime and over concerns of poor C&C systems in come countries), but that is part of a much larger whole. Furthermore, Israel does not require (or receive) US aid for their nuclear capability; I don't think there are any serious concerns on the part of the US about Israel either losing control of their nukes, proliferating nuclear weapons, or inadequately securing their nuclear weapons/sites.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Wow. I don't think that word means what you think it means.
    What word would prefer to refer to a group of people of one ethnicity slowly taking over land being lived on by people of another ethnicity, while simultaneously trying to make it difficult for the people who live their to day to day lives?

    Perhaps "colonialism" is a better word, so I'll use that instead.

    Fundamentally, I think your argument is somewhat problematic - for the most part Israel's actions in the West Bank (which appear to be your biggest concern about their 'unrestrained behavior') are not really driven by US military aid.
    US Aid to Israel is what gives it politically leverage over Israel, so Israel has to at least pretend to listen when the US says it should not be engaging in colonialism. The fact that US aid is not directly relevant to those colonial activities isn't really relevant - Israel relies on that aid to ensure it's general security, so it needs to pay attention to what the US says.

    That is especially true if you were to subscribe to the view of most of Israel's critics that while the day-to-day evils of occupation are of course awful, the true nature of Israeli brutality is revealed through their high intensity conflicts, generally in Gaza and Lebanon. These conflicts do use substantial US aid, especially air power and precision munitions, some artillery/MLRS systems, and missile defense systems, and produce the greatest opprobrium in the media (along with causing the greatest number of casualties). One might reasonably argue that if Israel had more limited access to these assets, their high intensity incursions would be fewer in number, more subdued in intensity, and shorter.

    (I obviously don't subscribe to this narrative, and it appears you don't either, which I find welcome but somewhat surprising given that the misery in Gaza in, say, 2014 far outstrips the day-to-day friction in the WB.)
    Well, I think it's a load of bollocks. Although the situation in Gaza is worse than the situation in the West Bank, the situation there is far less one sided. Most of the suffering there is caused by the blockade rather than Israel's sporadic military attacks and I think it's clear that if the blockade ceased, Hamas would gleefully begin stockpiling weapons with which to attack Israel - I don't think it is reasonable (or realistic, given that Israel is a democracy) to expect any government to simply put up with its citizens being attacked. The Israeli government has to do something and what they're doing is probably one of the least bad options available.

    I'm absolutely not going to let Israel off the hook for the situation in the west-bank (for example it seems to have entirely given up on the peace process, and seems content to let the situation in Gaza fester which seems as short-sighted as it is inhumane) but it's a complex situation with a lot of blame to go around... but its activities in the west bank are completely without justification or excuse, they're on a par with what Russia is up to in the Ukraine, except Israel doesn't even have the decency to lie about it.

    Indeed, the people of Gaza, having seen the people of the west bank give up violent resistance to Israel, and have in payment seen their lands slowly taken over by middle-class religious fanatics might justifiably conclude that peaceful coexistence with these people is a mugs game.
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  13. #13
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    Wiggin, I still don't get the actual benefit of such a move. It seems a strategical re-allignment for tactical reasons almost. I could understand if your 'whiny teenager' example would pop up regularly in the political debate in the USA. But I see no regular mentioning of Israel behaving like a spoiled brat in the media, so I will have to assume that's not the way the vast majority of Americans look at it. I think the bigger threath to the relationship would be if the US starts to wonder why it exactly thought it had this strategic interest in the Middle East and more precisely in Israel. As things are the consensus in the US is that these strategic interests exist, whatever they may be, and the money is a mere afterthought in that whole process.

    I guess what I am trying to say is 'If it aint broken, don't try to fix it'.
    Congratulations America

  14. #14
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_I...ative_election

    I haven't really been paying attention to Israeli politics recently. What the heck happened to Labor? 10 seats?
    Hope is the denial of reality

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