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Thread: Demolish inner cities.

  1. #1

    Default Demolish inner cities.

    I was reading about yet another deadly shooting in my city, over drugs. It was located right in the center. That's where the most crime is.

    Inner cities should be demolished, and don't get up-- I have a compelling reason as to why this should be done.

    I live north of Boston. There's a fair amount of economic opportunity in Boston for many types of people, but living in a squalid apartment that's relatively far from either commuter rail or is difficult to access compounds all the other problems of drugs/crime, noise/pollution, and culturally persistent low education. The solution is to demolish all these squalid tenements and one-room houses via eminent domain, and put an easy and fast commuter link to The City (in this case, Boston) for every building. Put up either well-designed low-density houses or well-designed (noise blocking) apartments/condos. The very very center historic part of my city has well-designed apartments now and has been mostly yuppified. But slightly off to the side are many cheap and squalid tenements that keep being built and re-built (after fires, getting run down, etc), as well as 1950s single or double-occupancy houses that now house 3 or more families.
    Last edited by agamemnus; 05-17-2015 at 12:58 AM.

  2. #2
    This solution is the equivalent of putting on makeup to cover gangrene.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Well it does have some value - it does help to demolish shitty and derelict buildings as part of an effort to improve the neighbourhood (and/or improving existing buildings). I think it worked fairly well in certain Amsterdam areas, and they've done it in my neighbourhood and the area has improved - but not just because of demolishing the shitty old houses.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  4. #4
    Are they demolishing the people who live in those neighborhoods? Demolishing the social problems that produce these kind of neighborhoods?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #5
    I'm a firm believer in "Good fences make good neighbors." and other such expressions. Societal problems don't go away by themselves, but building structure and city planning does matter.

    The fact is, most of these buildings are NOT derelict-- they are just poorly/cheaply designed and built, either because the landlord wants to make as much money as possible or because they were built 60 years ago with an eye towards much, much lower occupancy levels. That's also a failure of zoning laws.

  6. #6
    How will you compensate the residents?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  7. #7
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Are they demolishing the people who live in those neighborhoods? Demolishing the social problems that produce these kind of neighborhoods?
    If you read my post, I clearly said as part of an effort to improve the neighbourhood, by which I meant trying to do something about the social problems as well. Just demolishing houses and building new ones won't really solve any problems, no. But are you denying that things like housing quality, the condition of the streets, parks, etc., have no effect at all on a neighbourhood? Including crime?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    How will you compensate the residents?
    Over here in areas like these, almost everybody rents from a housing corporation. They are usually offered a better house, from what I know.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  8. #8
    Sure, they have an effect. But there's not much money to go around in helping these areas, and spending all that money on destroying decent housing isn't the best way to use those scarce resources.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  9. #9
    Actions like this have a time and place, but rarer than might be thought. If an area is completely dilapidated then yes demolishing it via compulsory purchase orders and rebuilding could have an impact. However the people will still be around no matter what and how you deal with them will make a big difference. If you just build a like-for-like replacement either in the same location or elsewhere then the chances are nothing will change and you'll have the same problems restored again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    How will you compensate the residents?
    Some sort of appraisal process plus 25% should do it.


    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Actions like this have a time and place, but rarer than might be thought. If an area is completely dilapidated then yes demolishing it via compulsory purchase orders and rebuilding could have an impact. However the people will still be around no matter what and how you deal with them will make a big difference. If you just build a like-for-like replacement either in the same location or elsewhere then the chances are nothing will change and you'll have the same problems restored again.
    My city has had societal problems for decades. I won't get too deep into what they are at the moment as I think I covered that over the years. Edit: I've seen a documentary on Detroit and some other cities. Oh boy... well, it's nothing like that, but it will get there if nothing is done.

    I don't think the buildings should just be demolished and rebuilt. I think that the roads should be completely redesigned in large sections of the city center. For the past 10 years we've had an increasing problem of overpopulation in the schools due to lax zoning laws. Too many poor and uneducated families with too many children concentrated in one place. A high density of, for lack of a better word, high density, creates problems.

    Regarding the zoning laws, we do of course have them. One family with 1-2 kids in a small apartment is not the same as one family with 3-5 kids in a small apartment. There's a vast difference, but to the zoning laws it is the same.

    It's all just a compounding effect. It's not just one thing. Poor access to Boston (where wages are higher), plus a heavy population density leads to crime and noise nuisance. This leads to a poor study environment for kids and exacerbates the problem. Etcetera.

    Let me be clear that I am not advocating for putting people in giant apartment buildings. We have that and it is just as bad. Plus, as I'm sure many of you know, that approach has been tried many times and failed.

    There is only one approach that truly works: demolish inner cities.

    Edit: note that I am not advocating for demolishing cities, just inner cities. High density is good when there is financial opportunity, and high levels of education and civility. Poor and culturally uneducated people in the US tend to get dumped into inner cities by sheer populist politics and economics. Baltimore.
    Last edited by agamemnus; 05-18-2015 at 04:00 AM.

  11. #11
    You still haven't said what exactly you want done to the people who live in the inner cities. Move them out to the farms?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #12
    What Loki said. I said that there's a time and place for compulsory purchases and demolition, but rarely and it was important what you replace it with. You then quote and respond that merely repeating your contention that the inner city be demolished.

    Demolition is pointless without construction. You're only addressing one half of the equation, until you address both sides your proposal is fatally flawed. Go back to the drawing board and come back on a proposal of what replaces the inner city homes you've demolished.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #13
    Okay. So, let me clarify. (For the sake of brevity, I'm going to from now on refer to people living in inner cities as poors.)

    A recent supermarket and shopping area development on the outskirts of the highway around Boston got built about a year ago. It's basically only accessibly by cars. Big parking lot. The portion I'd want to demolish would actually probably fit in maybe 3 times that area.

    Anyway, the problem is not just poors, but a high concentration of poors. What I would like to see is a distribution of poors to other communities. Yes, they will still have substandard housing and still be poors, but if you lessen the concentration of poors it reduces the compounding effect of crime, noise, hopelessness, reduced property values, and so on.

    Here is what I would do, if I could. There are many ordinance changes I would do to make the city more attractive to live in, as the poors, (and wealthier ill-mannered folk from out of totwn who don't care) have really savaged a lot of park land... but let's concentrate on this first.

    1) I would first demolish those buildings, including the two giant residential towers in the city near the waterfront. (very poor noise insulation)
    2) The likeliest mass transport to Boston would be a ferry service. There is one in place at present (after a very long time), but it's not that widely used. The road that the ferry is on is a congested nightmare. I would demolish the small houses and businesses (including the gas station) along the route, and build a proper high-speed road criss-crossing the city. Note that the waterfront area already has a high capacity road that leads to Boston within 15-20 minutes, but the road connections to that area are congested, as mentioned.
    3) The demolished area will have new roads feeding into this high-speed road. It will be a mix of lofts (closer to the center) and high-priced residential buildings.
    4) I would expand the ferry service capacity heavily, including some ferries that will handle cars.
    5) I would add shuttle service and combine it with the ferry service.

    With this plan, I would like to reduce the city density by at least 15,000. (Current city population is 90,000)

  14. #14
    I fail to see how any of that reduces population density unless you're kicking the poor people out of the city...

    As for shifting poor people into other neighborhoods, it's not like the people in those neighborhoods would protest or anything. Incidentally, how are you going to do that? By guaranteeing low-income housing in every neighborhood?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #15
    Less and more expensive housing (land value will go up due to this change). Many of the poors will not be able to stay.

    Yes, my plan shifts some poors out of the city and into other cities. The poors will always find a place to live. Don't worry about that. Those other cities will have to adjust. Inner cities have been shouldering the weight of concentrated poors for too long.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Okay. So, let me clarify. (For the sake of brevity, I'm going to from now on refer to people living in inner cities as poors.)

    A recent supermarket and shopping area development on the outskirts of the highway around Boston got built about a year ago. It's basically only accessibly by cars. Big parking lot. The portion I'd want to demolish would actually probably fit in maybe 3 times that area.

    Anyway, the problem is not just poors, but a high concentration of poors. What I would like to see is a distribution of poors to other communities. Yes, they will still have substandard housing and still be poors, but if you lessen the concentration of poors it reduces the compounding effect of crime, noise, hopelessness, reduced property values, and so on.

    Here is what I would do, if I could. There are many ordinance changes I would do to make the city more attractive to live in, as the poors, (and wealthier ill-mannered folk from out of totwn who don't care) have really savaged a lot of park land... but let's concentrate on this first.

    1) I would first demolish those buildings, including the two giant residential towers in the city near the waterfront. (very poor noise insulation)
    2) The likeliest mass transport to Boston would be a ferry service. There is one in place at present (after a very long time), but it's not that widely used. The road that the ferry is on is a congested nightmare. I would demolish the small houses and businesses (including the gas station) along the route, and build a proper high-speed road criss-crossing the city. Note that the waterfront area already has a high capacity road that leads to Boston within 15-20 minutes, but the road connections to that area are congested, as mentioned.
    3) The demolished area will have new roads feeding into this high-speed road. It will be a mix of lofts (closer to the center) and high-priced residential buildings.
    4) I would expand the ferry service capacity heavily, including some ferries that will handle cars.
    5) I would add shuttle service and combine it with the ferry service.

    With this plan, I would like to reduce the city density by at least 15,000. (Current city population is 90,000)
    Unfortunately your premise does not necessarily follow. The whole article is worth reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Atlantic
    In the most literal sense, the national effort to diffuse poverty has succeeded. Since 1990, the number of Americans living in neighborhoods of concentrated poverty—meaning that at least 40 percent of households are below the federal poverty level—has declined by 24percent. But this doesn’t tell the whole story. Recently, the housing expert George Galster, of Wayne State University, analyzed the shifts in urban poverty and published his results in a paper called “A Cautionary Tale.” While fewer Americans live in high-poverty neighborhoods, increasing numbers now live in places with “moderate” poverty rates, meaning rates of 20 to 40 percent. This pattern is not necessarily better, either for poor people trying to break away from bad neighborhoods or for cities, Galster explains. His paper compares two scenarios: a city split into high-poverty and low-poverty areas, and a city dominated by median-poverty ones. The latter arrangement is likely to produce more bad neighborhoods and more total crime, he concludes, based on a computer model of how social dysfunction spreads.

    Studies show that recipients of Section8 vouchers have tended to choose moderately poor neighborhoods that were already on the decline, not low-poverty neighborhoods. One recent study publicized by HUD warned that policy makers should lower their expectations, because voucher recipients seemed not to be spreading out, as they had hoped, but clustering together. Galster theorizes that every neighborhood has its tipping point—a threshold well below a 40 percent poverty rate—beyond which crime explodes and other severe social problems set in. Pushing a greater number of neighborhoods past that tipping point is likely to produce more total crime. In 2003, the Brookings Institution published a list of the 15 cities where the number of high-poverty neighborhoods had declined the most. In recent years, most of those cities have also shown up as among the most violent in the U.S., according to FBI data.

    The “Gathering Storm” report that worried over an upcoming epidemic of violence was inspired by a call from the police chief of Louisville, Kentucky, who’d seen crime rising regionally and wondered what was going on. Simultaneously, the University of Louisville criminologist Geetha Suresh was tracking local patterns of violent crime. She had begun her work years before, going blind into the research: she had just arrived from India, had never heard of a housing project, had no idea which were the bad parts of town, and was clueless about the finer points of American racial sensitivities. In her research, Suresh noticed a recurring pattern, one that emerged first in the late 1990s, then again around 2002. A particularly violent neighborhood would suddenly go cold, and crime would heat up in several new neighborhoods. In each case, Suresh has now confirmed, the first hot spots were the neighborhoods around huge housing projects, and the later ones were places where people had moved when the projects were torn down. From that, she drew the obvious conclusion: “Crime is going along with them.” Except for being hand-drawn, Suresh’s map matching housing patterns with crime looks exactly like Janikowski and Betts’s.

  17. #17
    Enoch the Red, I just skimmed the excerpt and this article seems to support my view...

    Edit: I don't think either median poverty everywhere or high poverty in one spot of a city is the answer.

    Edit 2: Of course crime follows poors. But if you reduce the density of poors it will have a positive effect. No, I don't think anyone wants to live in a city with "medium poors" everywhere, either...

    Edit 3: It's somewhat obvious why section 8 recipients cluster together. Whole areas have cheaper costs for both tenant and landlord. Landlords cluster buildings that will accept it because they know section 8 recipients will otherwise reduce housing values. The major problem is that section 8 housing is not a real housing rebate or voucher--- it's a program for landlords. Too much politics made it worse than if there had been no section 8.

    Fun quick reading:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_decay

    Fun picture: (I do NOT support this)
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...igoeUSGS02.jpg
    Last edited by agamemnus; 05-18-2015 at 07:49 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    I was reading about yet another deadly shooting in my city, over drugs. It was located right in the center. That's where the most crime is.

    Inner cities should be demolished, and don't get up-- I have a compelling reason as to why this should be done.

    I live north of Boston. There's a fair amount of economic opportunity in Boston for many types of people, but living in a squalid apartment that's relatively far from either commuter rail or is difficult to access compounds all the other problems of drugs/crime, noise/pollution, and culturally persistent low education. The solution is to demolish all these squalid tenements and one-room houses via eminent domain, and put an easy and fast commuter link to The City (in this case, Boston) for every building. Put up either well-designed low-density houses or well-designed (noise blocking) apartments/condos. The very very center historic part of my city has well-designed apartments now and has been mostly yuppified. But slightly off to the side are many cheap and squalid tenements that keep being built and re-built (after fires, getting run down, etc), as well as 1950s single or double-occupancy houses that now house 3 or more families.
    I'm reminded of the villain, Mr Fisk, in the recent Netflix Daredevil series. His evil plot was to tear down Hell's Kitchen and rebuild it with better urban planning. You are now large and bald in my mind's eye. And vicious.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I'm reminded of the villain, Mr Fisk, in the recent Netflix Daredevil series. His evil plot was to tear down Hell's Kitchen and rebuild it with better urban planning. You are now large and bald in my mind's eye. And vicious.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Enoch the Red, I just skimmed the excerpt and this article seems to support my view...

    Edit: I don't think either median poverty everywhere or high poverty in one spot of a city is the answer.
    I don't think you did a good job skimming then.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I don't think you did a good job skimming then.
    Okay, so what's the answer? Delete poors? Keep them there? None of these are good ideas.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Okay, so what's the answer? Delete poors? Keep them there? None of these are good ideas.
    I think the answer, however unsatisfying it may be, is to realize our limitations, and approach the issue with a modicum of humility. We don't need to delete "poors." We don't need to keep "them" anywhere. In fact, we probably shouldn't be doing anything. Previous attempts to tackle this problem have had noble aims, but have had unintended consequences that often weren't in the best interest of the "poors" - or their neighbors.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 05-19-2015 at 02:02 AM.

  23. #23
    Massive fires (Rome under Nero) or enlightened dictators (Paris under Napoleon) used to solve the problem of what to do, but now with modern build codes and democracy, that's all gone to you-know-where.

  24. #24
    You mean that under them the poor were allowed to die?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #25
    There will always be "poor people", no matter how poverty is framed or defined. Seems to me the major dilemma is that people working full-time often have a hard time finding affordable housing -- even with supplemental income from a partner or roommate -- but we're slow to recognize "the working poor" in our public policies.

    Inner cities aren't the problem. If I could point to policies with uninteded bad outcomes, it would be the expansion of ex-urban/suburban sprawl....and either needing a car, or public transit, to do one's job.

  26. #26
    It's unfortunate I am not emperor.

  27. #27
    Yeah, everyone should be able to find a job within walking distance of their house.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  28. #28
    GGT argued for my point of view without realizing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Yeah, everyone should be able to find a job within walking distance of their house.
    Indeed. That (or something like it) is really the heart of it. I thought you were an economist. If you allow poors to access better-paying jobs in farther out places, the economy benefits.

  29. #29
    Yeah, because the problem for people without skills is their lack of access to jobs that require skilled workers.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Yeah, everyone should be able to find a job within walking distance of their house.
    No, but if you have a job and work 40 hours/week (+), shouldn't that mean housing and transportation costs don't eat up 90% of your income?

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