Gun Laws

[GGT]

Gun control and gun laws have been mentioned in a couple of threads. Time to break break it down, let the mess begin

The US has a fascination and love for firearms, the Right to keep and bear arms (Second Amendment), millions of gun owners, and a complicated set of federal and state laws. We also have problems with gun violence and deaths, black market illegal gun sales, and people who consider military-grade weaponry as any other "Arms".

I'll start with a few questions for the gun group here:

1) What's the rationale behind "conceal-carry" licenses?
2) Don't current SYG laws, coupled with concealed guns, contribute to vigilantism?
3) Why would regular folks want to own military type assault weapons?
4) Should each household be required to have a firearm?
5) What restrictions would you legislate? Would they be aimed at the weapon or the owner/user?*
6) Who/How should those restrictions be monitored?
7) If you don't believe in gun control laws, why not?

* or by location *





Another, more complicated question regards your "relationship" to guns, and how it affects your attitude toward gun laws/gun control. I've lived in more than one hunting state, and in general have found game hunters aren't bothered much by laws surrounding age, gun safety classes, permits or licenses. They're more likely to complain about legal hunting "seasons" than gun laws.

I've also lived in rural areas where everyone has a gun...but it's to kill the fox munching on hens, or the groundhog tunneling under the barn....not "intruders or looters". I've been a suburban dweller for years now, and know more parents (fathers) who've gotten rid of their guns, instead of buying one, for safety reasons. I have no way of knowing or proving it, but my hunch is that came from their wives not wanting a gun in the house, with little kids around. The exception is in livestock and farming households, where guns are considered a tool (more than a weapon), and both mom and dad teach their kids how to use and respect guns from an early age.

I'll admit to being perplexed by the sheer number of US folks who want a gun, feel safer with a gun, keep a gun in their glove box or under their pillow, want to strap it to their chest or shin and hide it under their clothing..... It's not like so many of us still live on the Prairie, tending 1,000 acres, warding off wolves or cattle rustlers. Most armed robberies aren't happening in private homes, but in commercial/retail sites.

I can understand why the small merchant may want to keep a gun under the register counter, but I don't understand why he'd take that attitude home, and keep a gun under the kitchen sink, or under his pillow. Maybe someone can explain that to me?

[Lewkowski]

1. Hell if I know. Why should you have license in order to take advantage of your 2nd amendment rights.

2. I suppose but is that a bad thing? The criminal fears police because of jail, by having them fear their potential victims you make it more likely that no crime is committed in the first place.

3. Some people like to collect guns. Some people leave the service and want to have a keepsake as a reminder. Some just want to be able to protect themselves. Some think they need it for protection. Some just like the idea of having a big gun...

4. No. Why would you require something like that? That's like requiring people to buy health insurance.

5. Aimed at the user if they use a gun inappropriately.

6. Good question - really it would be like alcohol and driving. If you misuse it then the police get involved. If you've misused guns in the past and are doing something illegal with it again then the punishment should magnified.

7. Because it violates the 2nd amendment. It violates everyone's freedom. It creates a dependence on the government. It creates more crime since criminals don't have to worry as much about their victims fighting back.

[GGT]

Lewk, (4) was based on early US history, when George Washington wanted to require every household have a firearm, plus Switzerland (a pacifist nation) laws of the same type.

How is the 2nd Amendment "violated" by having rules or limitations? Even Free Speech comes with legal limits.


As for your other answers....yes, vigilante justice can be a 'bad thing'. It can end up with young black men being "profiled" as thieves or thugs (Walking While Black), or poor people being shot for swiping a tube of toothpaste.

Why would anyone want to conceal their weapon? If your claims about deterring criminals is true, then shouldn't you be advocating for visible weapons instead of hidden ones?

Also, I'm not well-versed on military or service weapon "ownership", but I was under the impression those arms are property of the US Government or their agencies, not something service members can just take as a keepsake when they retire.

Some just like the idea of having a big gun...

Right, big guns. And some just like the idea of having a tank, rocket launchers, or bombs. What could possibly go wrong with everyone having whatever weapon they want?

[Lewkowski]

In the toothpaste example the hardened criminal was choked to death. Which goes to show that people still die without guns and if the manager had a gun maybe the guy wouldn't have run he would have just surrendered instead of struggling.

[Lebanese Dragon]

In the toothpaste example the hardened criminal was choked to death. Which goes to show that people still die without guns and if the manager had a gun maybe the guy wouldn't have run he would have just surrendered instead of struggling.

Guns escalate violence, and we've reached a techological point where we can now non-lethally disable most people. Tasers, rubber bullets, various other non-lethal weapons being developed. I think for the most part people don't need guns.

I'd imagine all those high school, and middle school shootings would have been prevented if their parents didn't own guns.

[GGT]

In the toothpaste example the hardened criminal was choked to death. Which goes to show that people still die without guns and if the manager had a gun maybe the guy wouldn't have run he would have just surrendered instead of struggling.

What if.... the "hardened criminal" had a gun? He would have tried to steal more than just toothpaste. What if... the store manager had a gun---would it be hidden under the counter, or worn in plain sight? Would it then become a Wild West shoot-out, to see who could draw their weapon faster? Maybe a contest between the weapons themselves...shotgun vs pistol vs semi-automatic vs bomb?

Regular people visibly packing heat....or wondering/assuming people are hiding guns under their clothing....neither scenario sounds good to me. In fact, it sounds more like Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Mexico, or any place where citizens have lost faith in their local community. Including their Police. There are definitely spots in the US where that's true, homes and shops (and schools) with bars on windows and doors, pitt bulls in the front yard, a few big guys standing guard, or a private rent-a-cop.

IMO those areas don't need more people with more guns, but better educational and economic opportunities. Some will still need cops at the schoolyard entrance scanning for weapons, but they'll have to stop treating fingernail clippers as "weapons". They should stop arresting any kid with a Darvon in their purse, or a joint in their pocket. And get rid of Truant Officers, too. But that means using public funding smarter, when tax revenue is tight. Cutting teachers and academic programs, along with police, is the wrong way to begin.

Unless there's some group out there waiting for total social breakdown, thinking the thugs and criminals will only shoot each other during The Fall.