Penn State's Shameful Scandal

[GGT]

(CNN) -- Head football coach Joe Paterno and the university president have lost their jobs, effective immediately, over a child sex abuse scandal at Penn State, university trustees announced Wednesday night.

****

Paterno's contract is set to expire at the end of the season. Some had called for him to resign immediately because of his response to allegations brought to him in 2002 by a graduate assistant, who said he had seen retired defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky, now 67, sexually assaulting a young boy in a shower at the campus football complex.

Paterno reported the allegations to his boss. Pennsylvania's attorney general said it appeared Paterno had met his obligations under state law, but critics have said the coach should have reported the suspected abuse to police.

Sandusky, who was arrested Saturday, is accused of sexual offenses, child endangerment and "corruption of a minor" involving eight boys, most or all of whom he met through The Second Mile, the charity he founded to help troubled youths, prosecutors said.

Two Penn State officials are accused of failing to report the alleged abuse.

****

State Attorney General Linda Kelly said Monday that the alleged failure of Timothy Curley, 57, Penn State's athletic director, and Gary Schultz, 62, the university's senior vice president for finance and business, to report abuse claims "likely allowed a child predator to continue to victimize children for many, many years."

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/09/justic...ges/index.html

Absolutely disgusting, and extremely disappointing. That grad student ended up being an assistant football coach, and knew Sandusky continued to be around young boys in his "charity" The Second Mile. Sandusky was allowed to keep his "privileges" to the football locker room and showers, even after he was caught sodomizing a young boy in the shower!

It's sickening. Hard to believe Paterno thought he could finish out the season after all this came to light! And it's gotten weird in the mourning at the loss of Paterno as head coach, instead of focusing on the victims....and how the football/athletic department and administrators ignored a child predator for years, and let him continue to groom young boys for his pedophilia.

It took three years for the grand jury report to go public....another insult on top of injury. Last count has around 14 previous victims now coming forward. Unbelievable. Reminds me of the Catholic church protecting pedophile priests "in the name of religion", only this religion is frickin' football.

[CitizenCain]

Paterno reported the allegations to his boss. Pennsylvania's attorney general said it appeared Paterno had met his obligations under state law

So why are we outraged at Paterno? (Well, we know why you are, but why should the rest of us be?)

Seems like he did nothing wrong, and it's his bosses who should be forced to resign. Can't think of much I care less about than college football, but what's with the outrage against a guy who by all accounts has done a phenomenal job (for 46 years, holy shit), and hasn't actually done anything objectionable?

[GGT]

Paterno reported the allegations to his boss. Pennsylvania's attorney general said it appeared Paterno had met his obligations under state law

So why are we outraged at Paterno? (Well, we know why you are, but why should the rest of us be?)

Seems like he did nothing wrong, and it's his bosses who should be forced to resign. Can't think of much I care less about than college football, but what's with the outrage against a guy who by all accounts has done a phenomenal job (for 46 years, holy shit), and hasn't actually done anything objectionable?

News reports make it sound like Sandusky continued to work as an assistant football coach, under Paterno as head coach, even after the first allegations were made. The official time-line is still rather murky. Still, Paterno knew Sandusky had started a "philanthropic agency" for young boys. And they are now trying to distance themselves from the pervert:

http://www.thesecondmile.org/welcome.php

Also, Paterno knew Sandusky retained his "alumni coaching privileges" to access the locker room and showers, even after he was no longer employed by the Athletic Department. Where he continued to rape young boys. Paterno has a reputation of knowing everything that goes on in "his" football department, and this had been going on since 1999.

[CitizenCain]

So... no reason, then?

Sounds like you need to be angry at the security guard, or demand video cameras in the locker rooms and showers... which I could definitely get behind, so long as it's fair, and we protect the women athletes the same way.

[GGT]

So... no reason, then?

Sounds like you need to be angry at the security guard, or demand video cameras in the locker rooms and showers... which I could definitely get behind, so long as it's fair, and we protect the women athletes the same way.

Any time any adult is alerted to a pedophile raping a child....they have a duty to report it, and follow through. I'd hope anyone would agree with that.

There's a chain of several adults who failed to do the right thing, for over a decade. There's a group of adults who were more concerned with "protecting" Sandusky--or the Penn State football program--instead of protecting innocent little boys from a sexual predator who was operating under their noses. That's reason enough to be outraged.

I have no idea how you can spin this into something else.

[CitizenCain]

Ah, the good ol' guilty until proven innocent approach to life. Can't say I expected different from you.

And, no I wouldn't agree that knowledge correlates into duty, even if you could demonstrate that this coach actually knew there was any substance to the allegations. He reported the allegations to his superiors (who were actually in a position to do anything about it) as required by law, and as a responsible employee. Why do you think his "duty" is to do any more than that?

Maybe you should be crucifying the graduate assistant, who actually claims to have seen the rape, for not following through vigorously enough - why didn't that guy call the cops (or whatever)? He was really the only one with any standing to make a legal complaint (other than the victim), so why don't you drag him through the mud, instead of the coach, who couldn't have gotten an investigation opened on hearsay evidence alone anyway. Or for that matter, the two Penn State officials who had authority hire and fire and invite the police in for an investigation? Too sensible? Or does Paterno's big nose have you confusing him for a j00?

[GGT]

Read my posts, Cain. That's a pre-requisite before you start hammering on me, instead of the people involved in this scandal.

Ah, the good ol' guilty until proven innocent approach to life. Can't say I expected different from you.

I'm concerned about the innocence of several young boys that was thoroughly trashed, because witnessing the first rape in the shower room wasn't quite enough to get attention from....any adult. What or who the hell are you trying to defend here?

And, no I wouldn't agree that knowledge correlates into duty, even if you could demonstrate that this coach actually knew there was any substance to the allegations. He reported the allegations to his superiors (who were actually in a position to do anything about it) as required by law, and as a responsible employee. Why do you think his "duty" is to do any more than that?

And why do you think I'm only talking about Paterno's duties? Even if that's the only focus (which it isn't), why wouldn't Paterno have insisted a retired coach (or ANYONE) identified as sodomizing a young boy in the Penn State football locker room be instantly banned from the premises and have his alumni "privileges" removed?

Even if all Paterno cared about was the damn football team, why wouldn't he have fought like hell to make sure that Sandusky be permanently banned from using Penn State's facilities? At minimum. Seriously, after he'd been told Sandusky was SEEN raping a 10 yr old in the showers, he "felt" all he had to do was "report" that to his boss? End of story? Really? That's fucked up.

Paterno (translation Father) was the head of the football department, and should have asked his "boss" what was done, after all, to make sure "his" players' football locker room and showers were banned to Sandusky. But he didn't. Paterno is just one bad link in the administrative chain, but he was an important first one. And he clearly didn't do enough, when he could/should have done more.

[CitizenCain]

Read my posts, Cain. That's a pre-requisite before you start hammering on me, instead of the people involved in this scandal.

Look, maybe you need to read your posts instead. Even having given up on a rational discussion with you, it would be nice to see you demonstrating some knowledge and understanding of your side of the "conversation."

I'm concerned about the innocence of several young boys that was thoroughly trashed, because witnessing the first rape in the shower room wasn't quite enough to get attention from....any adult. What or who the hell are you trying to defend here?

The j00s.

And the Paterno guy you seem to be directing most of your outrage at for no particular reason.

And why do you think I'm only talking about Paterno's duties?

Well, because you were.

Even if all Paterno cared about was the damn football team, why wouldn't he have fought like hell to make sure that Sandusky be permanently banned from using Penn State's facilities? At minimum. Seriously, after he'd been told Sandusky was SEEN raping a 10 yr old in the showers, he "felt" all he had to do was "report" that to his boss? End of story? Really? That's fucked up.

Paterno (translation Father) was the head of the football department, and should have asked his "boss" what was done, after all, to make sure "his" players' football locker room and showers were banned to Sandusky. But he didn't. Paterno is just one bad link in the administrative chain, but he was an important first one. And he clearly didn't do enough, when he could/should have done more.

You keep making this assertion, that he should have done more, but you don't back it up or even make any attempt to explain why.

[Flixy]

I must say that it seems odd to me that none of it was reported to the police, only to people working there. And when you notice nothing is done about the complaints, because nothing happens, why not report it then...

And that goes for everyone who knew.

[GGT]

Look, maybe you need to read your posts instead. Even having given up on a rational discussion with you, it would be nice to see you demonstrating some knowledge and understanding of your side of the "conversation."
The j00s.
And the Paterno guy you seem to be directing most of your outrage at for no particular reason.
Well, because you were.
You keep making this assertion, that he should have done more, but you don't back it up or even make any attempt to explain why.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/09/justic...ges/index.html

Absolutely disgusting, and extremely disappointing. That grad student ended up being an assistant football coach, and knew Sandusky continued to be around young boys in his "charity" The Second Mile. Sandusky was allowed to keep his "privileges" to the football locker room and showers, even after he was caught sodomizing a young boy in the shower!

It's sickening. Hard to believe Paterno thought he could finish out the season after all this came to light! And it's gotten weird in the mourning at the loss of Paterno as head coach, instead of focusing on the victims....and how the football/athletic department and administrators ignored a child predator for years, and let him continue to groom young boys for his pedophilia.

It took three years for the grand jury report to go public....another insult on top of injury. Last count has around 14 previous victims now coming forward. Unbelievable. Reminds me of the Catholic church protecting pedophile priests "in the name of religion", only this religion is frickin' football.

In the OP I clearly dissed the grad student. Also blasted the administrators who didn't follow through. Later I said it's not just Paterno to blame, but the whole damn university that held football in such revered status, almost as a religion, to the point they couldn't/wouldn't protect innocent kids.

And what the hell are YOU saying, Cain? Other than fighting with me, just because that's easiest for you? Are you saying it's just how things go, when 10 year old boys are raped in the Penn State football locker room or showers, and coaches turn a blind eye...for over a decade?

[LittleFuzzy]

I must say that it seems odd to me that none of it was reported to the police, only to people working there. And when you notice nothing is done about the complaints, because nothing happens, why not report it then...

And that goes for everyone who knew.

How do you know nothing happens? Because the person complained about isn't fired? Which presumably also happens if there's an investigation which doesn't turn up anything?

[Flixy]

How do you know nothing happens? Because the person complained about isn't fired? Which presumably also happens if there's an investigation which doesn't turn up anything?

If you were the witness, you'd expect being questioned, presumably? Or simply ask the people you reported it to what is being done/has been done?

[LittleFuzzy]

If you were the witness, you'd expect being questioned, presumably? Or simply ask the people you reported it to what is being done/has been done?

The thing is, when the police aren't the ones doing the investigating, the response to allegations of sexual misconduct is done with a great deal of discretion because the potential for liability for defamation is very, very high. And not just from the person accused, but from the people they're accused of targeting. This is even more the case in our colleges and universities because of the really harsh privacy protection provisions that have been attached to being a recipient of federal funding.

[Flixy]

Fair enough, but reporting to police sounds like it would be one of the first steps, considering a criminal offense has been reported.. And the second point still stands.

[GGT]

[Warning---anecdotes mixed with rambling}

This scandal really bothered me. Not just because it involved innocent kids, but because it was perpetrated in my state, under the powerful wing of Penn State. Over a time span that included scandals of pedophilia and abuse in the Catholic church. No longer sufficient to say "we just didn't understand the magnitude". While the Catholic church, its Diocese and priests were in the news every day, trying to fend off legal and moral accusations surrounding pedophilic priest predators....it's incomprehensible to me that Penn State football coaches, or the administration was turning a blind eye to the same behavior.

Designating any institution as superior, or any "program" with religious-type adoration, or any people as the gods of....what would that be....acceptance, hope, trust, fortune, success, fame? That will also backfire when it's vulnerable children, lost or confused but trusting an adult....that one adult who groomed them to be their victim. It saddens and angers me that the same motivations for kids can be the same things predators use against them.

It makes me sick to realize that it's occurring in all the places it shouldn't---scouts, churches, athletics, camps, schools---time away from home, when parents think they're expanding their child's experiences, or enriching their lives. Come to find out they've unknowingly sent their babes into a wolf's den. And it may take years before the truth comes out, long after the emotional damage has already been done.

[LittleFuzzy]

Fair enough, but reporting to police sounds like it would be one of the first steps, considering a criminal offense has been reported.. And the second point still stands.

What I said actually addresses the second point more than the first. If you're not the investigating authority or someone with oversight over that authority, if you ask what you get told is they don't give out that sort of information. And while reporting the matter to the police certainly seems like it would be an early step for anyone, the statement from the Pennsylvania Attorney-General indicates this is apparently not the case.

[CitizenCain]

In the OP I clearly dissed the grad student. Also blasted the administrators who didn't follow through. Later I said it's not just Paterno to blame, but the whole damn university that held football in such revered status, almost as a religion, to the point they couldn't/wouldn't protect innocent kids.

So you really think that's the reason, huh? Every thread with you's another adventure in the exploration of absurdity. An absurdity onion, if you will... no matter how many layers you peel away, there's always another waiting.

And what the hell are YOU saying, Cain? Other than fighting with me, just because that's easiest for you? Are you saying it's just how things go, when 10 year old boys are raped in the Penn State football locker room or showers, and coaches turn a blind eye...for over a decade?

OK, if that's what you wanna think, go right ahead.

And while reporting the matter to the police certainly seems like it would be an early step for anyone, the statement from the Pennsylvania Attorney-General indicates this is apparently not the case.

Depends. I wouldn't risk a prestigious, high six/low seven figure a year job by going around my bosses and reporting a bunch of hearsay to the cops, and I think anyone who claims otherwise (like Paterno's critics, and the media, and the throngs of angry morons who got him booted out) is a lying sack of shit. Although, I can see the argument for the witness and to a lesser extent, the administrative bosses, though I'm not sure why they ought to be expected to stick their necks out either. Hush money exists for a reason and the liability issues you mentioned and all that.

It makes me sick to realize that it's occurring in all the places it shouldn't

So, what you're proposing is designated "child-rape zones," or the equivalent? Great that you're willing to agree that there are places where we shouldn't allow minors to be raped, but it begs the much more interesting question of where you think we should allow minors to be raped.

[GGT]

So you really think that's the reason, huh? Every thread with you's another adventure in the exploration of absurdity. An absurdity onion, if you will... no matter how many layers you peel away, there's always another waiting.

OK, if that's what you wanna think, go right ahead.

Depends. I wouldn't risk a prestigious, high six/low seven figure a year job by going around my bosses and reporting a bunch of hearsay to the cops, and I think anyone who claims otherwise (like Paterno's critics, and the media, and the throngs of angry morons who got him booted out) is a lying sack of shit. Although, I can see the argument for the witness and to a lesser extent, the administrative bosses, though I'm not sure why they ought to be expected to stick their necks out either. Hush money exists for a reason and the liability issues you mentioned and all that.


So, what you're proposing is designated "child-rape zones," or the equivalent? Great that you're willing to agree that there are places where we shouldn't allow minors to be raped, but it begs the much more interesting question of where you think we should allow minors to be raped.

You're the one being absurd. But, of course you wouldn't call the cops after witnessing a little boy being anally raped in the shower room! Being an eye witness isn't "hearsay". Nah, you wouldn't dare to intervene and try to pull the man off the kid either, just turn around and leave. None of your business, or hey, it's one of the old coaches, so you won't risk your job for that. Especially not a job that involves kids, and requires being a leader, with a sense of right or wrong. That's pathetic.

The legalities are complicated, Flixy. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/12/us...mv&ref=general

There are plenty of officials in hot water, from the police to the DA, and the whole AD and football coaching staff. Anyone who had been told about abuses since at least 1999, and didn't treat it as criminal behavior. PA has some strange minimum laws surrounding "reporting crimes" on campus, with loopholes that allow employment contracts to restrict someone [like a janitor] to only alert their supervisor, and not call police. It's the notion that University police are working for administration and not student safety, don't follow the law like public police, and prefer to "handle problems internally".

[CitizenCain]

Speaking of pathetic, why don't you pick on someone who can fight back, instead of heaping piles of undeserved abuse on all those defenseless windmills that never did anything to anyone?

[GGT]

Speaking of pathetic, why don't you pick on someone who can fight back, instead of heaping piles of undeserved abuse on all those defenseless windmills that never did anything to anyone?

Who's tilting at windmills? If you don't think there was a legal duty for this to have been dealt with much earlier, by plenty of adults along the way, that doesn't explain away the ethical duty to step in when child RAPE is being witnessed. Or to do more than just "report" it to a boss or superior, and call that good 'nuff.

Anything else you want to say isn't worth your time or trouble, Cain? People being stabbed or beaten in front of your face? Is it just in the workplace you wouldn't intervene, or anywhere?

[LittleFuzzy]

You're the one being absurd. But, of course you wouldn't call the cops after witnessing a little boy being anally raped in the shower room!

Because you appear to be deeply set in one of your less grounded moods permit me to ask *since I haven't seen this addressed in the reports I've seen* whether you're using "little boy" to refer to any minor, or whether you're suggesting which one of the multiple age thresholds in Pennsylvania state law is in play here?

[GGT]

Because you appear to be deeply set in one of your less grounded moods permit me to ask *since I haven't seen this addressed in the reports I've seen* whether you're using "little boy" to refer to any minor, or whether you're suggesting which one of the multiple age thresholds in Pennsylvania state law is in play here?

This isn't a "mood of mine". That's somewhat insulting, Fuzzy.

I'm referring to McQueary's Grand Jury testimony, where he swore under oath to being an eye witness to Sandusky (whom he knew and could identify immediately) anally raping a boy that looked to be around ten years old in the Penn State football team's showers. In 2002. He did nothing at the time, but "went home and told his father". Then "reported" it later to Paterno. He then became Assistant Coach.

The Grand Jury testimonies have only recently come to light, and it's disgusting. Sandusky was seen forcing minor kids into oral and/or anal sodomy. Not just by McQueary but also janitorial staff. Basically, he was raping little boys. On Penn State premises. And everyone in positions of authority turned a blind eye. They didn't even bother to revoke Sandusky's "alumni privileges" to the locker and shower rooms.

*His Alumni perks that remained in effect, after initial 1999 sexual abuse allegations, and his convenient "retirement" thereafter. This is the man who was assumed to replace Paterno as head coach one day. One of the most trusted and "admired" coaches. Retiring in his 50's and never getting another coaching job afterward. hmmm, wonder why that is?

Most likely because Sandusky was a known predator, within the Fraternity of Football. His phone conversation was witnessed (taped?) with a mother of one of the early young victims....admitting he was sexually inappropriate in the shower room with little boys. Promising he'd never do it again, then saying he wished he was dead.

Adding insult to injury, it doesn't seem that ANYONE alerted Sandusky's "charitable youth organization", The Second Mile, to his behavior. So he ended up bringing disadvantaged young boys to Penn State, to watch football practice or meet Joe Pa or whatever, under the auspice of helping them learn how to use athletics to get an education...and improve their lives. Then he'd rape them in Penn State's locker room or showers.

Typical pedophile grooming behavior. Luring kids into a "benevolent environment", so they could abuse them, relying on the secrecy of the Fraternity. Men of importance or power, willing to look the other way, so their group can continue to be important and powerful.

It seems to be everywhere now. Legislators using pages as their sex toys, Scout masters abusing boys on camp-outs, Priests molesting boys almost religiously, Teachers screwing their students, employers and CEOs (*cough* Herman Cain?) denying the degree of sexual harassment.....and sports coaches using universities to attract and rape their victims.

It's disgusting and hideous moral bankruptcy.

[CitizenCain]

Who's tilting at windmills? If you don't think there was a legal duty for this to have been dealt with much earlier, by plenty of adults along the way, that doesn't explain away the ethical duty to step in when child RAPE is being witnessed. Or to do more than just "report" it to a boss or superior, and call that good 'nuff.

And why's that? You're the one making the positive claim (that a legal or moral or ethical duty exists under the prescribed set of circumstances), so you're the one who needs to back it up. And try to do better than:

Anything else you want to say isn't worth your time or trouble, Cain? People being stabbed or beaten in front of your face? Is it just in the workplace you wouldn't intervene, or anywhere?

Probably depends on the person. Many people I know would probably be well served by (or are deserving of) a stabbing or beating. But since you seem to have a bug up your butt about this, why don't you provide a convincing argument for getting involved (in the general case). Why is it, (or why should it be) my responsibility to risk my ass for some random person, who, with at least 5:1 odds is one of the asshats stealing my stuff and trampling over my rights?

Fuck him (or her), fuck you and fuck every one of the hundreds of millions small-minded fools who's helped to make the world what it is today by injecting themselves into everyone else's personal affairs and trying to control what they can't even begin to understand.

It's disgusting and hideous moral bankruptcy.

Awful. Someone really should put a stop to it by passing another law and some more tax hikes.

[GGT]

And why's that? You're the one making the positive claim (that a legal or moral or ethical duty exists under the prescribed set of circumstances), so you're the one who needs to back it up. And try to do better than:

I already posted links outlining PA's legal duties, and the "loopholes". Read them, especially the Clery Law.

Probably depends on the person. Many people I know would probably be well served by (or are deserving of) a stabbing or beating. But since you seem to have a bug up your butt about this, why don't you provide a convincing argument for getting involved (in the general case). Why is it, (or why should it be) my responsibility to risk my ass for some random person, who, with at least 5:1 odds is one of the asshats stealing my stuff and trampling over my rights?

Fuck him (or her), fuck you and fuck every one of the hundreds of millions small-minded fools who's helped to make the world what it is today by injecting themselves into everyone else's personal affairs and trying to control what they can't even begin to understand.

If you equate all that with witnessing anal rape of a child, and say it's small-minded or foolish to intervene on behalf of a "random" person, it's no wonder you're such a misanthrope.

Awful. Someone really should put a stop to it by passing another law and some more tax hikes.

More of your hateful BS. Certainly some laws are morally based, but not all moral behavior is required by law. Throwing tax hikes in there just proves what a shallow mind-set you have.

[CitizenCain]

If you equate all that with witnessing anal rape of a child, and say it's small-minded or foolish to intervene on behalf of a "random" person, it's no wonder you're such a misanthrope.

So, you're not going to explain why you think everyone else should be forced to do as you think? Or, even why you think what you think. Par for the course, as usual.

[GGT]

So, you're not going to explain why you think everyone else should be forced to do as you think? Or, even why you think what you think. Par for the course, as usual.

No, I'm not the one who has to explain why witnessing a child being anally raped should be considered heinous, or why any adult seeing that has a moral duty to intervene immediately, or at least call 911.

As far as I'm concerned, people like you have to explain and justify how walking away is good 'nuff. Or your lack of conscience.

[DecoyMilk]

I wonder what bothers GGT the most: Rape, or anal rape. Is it ok if it's not rape of the butt?

[Aimless]

Come on man use ur fricking brain brain. Anal rape is worse than vaginal rape but rape is [generally] worse than not-rape.

[Nessus]

I wonder what bothers GGT the most: Rape, or anal rape. Is it ok if it's not rape of the butt?

You come off as pretty despicable here. I'm sure it's funny to someone?

[termite]

OK so I read the thread after being redirected here from the thread which asked a loaded (and vague) question about witnessing a rape and what you "would" do if you were the witness.

Its all bad...