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Thread: Cold Water Washing

  1. #1

    Default Cold Water Washing

    I've seen this in stores and remain somewhat skeptical. Does anyone use these detergents and/or believe the claims? I would certainly love to reduce my washing load time and energy consumption if possible, but I'm not sure I believe they could chemically make detergent more effective in cold water for all types of dirt. There must be a compromise in there somewhere.

    Tide.com description:

    Like regular Tide, Tide Coldwater contains surfactants. Surfactant molecules have two parts. One is "water loving" and the other is "water hating." The water-loving (hydrophilic) part breaks the surface tension of water. The water-hating (hydrophobic) part is attracted to oil and grease in soils, loosening and removing them from fabrics.

    Tide Coldwater is specially designed with an increased amount of surfactant chemistry (as compared to regular Tide) that allows it to penetrate easily into fabrics. Tide Coldwater is also specially formulated with an increased amount of polymer technology (as compared to regular Tide) to suspend dirt particles to help prevent them from redepositing on fabrics, helping keep both your colors bright and your whites white.
    Article in today's NYTimes:

    September 16, 2011
    A Dash of Cold Water

    By ANDREW MARTIN and ELISABETH ROSENTHAL

    Newly formulated laundry detergents can wash most clothes perfectly well in cold water, manufacturers say, but customers are stubbornly refusing to turn down the temperature. Although some of these detergents have been available for several years, customers cling to mom’s age-old advice that hot water washes best — squandering energy and contributing to greenhouse gas emissions.

    Even in Germany, where consumers tend to be more environmentally attuned than in the United States, manufacturers have discovered that cold-water washing is such a hard sell that they have relegated claims about it — and the attendant green benefits — to the fine print, choosing to emphasize other attributes.

    “For selling, it is much more effective to focus on stain removal and whiteness, performance and price,” said Dr. Thomas Mueller-Kirschbaum, a senior vice president for research and development at Henkel, the German company that markets cold-water formulas under the Persil and Purex brands. “In market research, when you ask consumers, they currently don’t see the immediate benefit of saving energy.”

    Of course, some consumers have long preferred to wash their clothes in cold water to prevent them from shrinking or the colors from fading, and many others wash darks or delicate clothes on the cold cycle.

    But the idea of reformulating detergent so that all types of clothes can be washed in cold water is relatively new, at least in North America and Europe. (In Japan, consumers routinely do their laundry in cold water.)

    About three-quarters of the energy use and greenhouse-gas emissions from washing a load of laundry come from heating the water — a practice that, scientists say, is often wasteful and unnecessary.

    Procter & Gamble, the consumer products giant that makes brands like Crest and Gillette in addition to Tide, takes credit for the innovation in North America, which emerged from an evaluation of the company’s energy footprint in 2003.

    After realizing how much energy was used to heat water for laundry, Procter set a goal to convert 70 percent of all washing-machine loads to cold water by 2020; by Procter’s estimate currently 38 percent of laundry loads globally were done in cold water.

    But in trying to create Tide Coldwater, Procter’s scientists were confronted with a problem: hot water does help get clothes cleaner. In fact, thermal energy is one of three secrets to cleaning clothes, along with mechanical energy and chemicals.

    “When you reduce one, you have to do better in the others,” said James Danzinger, a senior scientist who works on detergents for Procter & Gamble.

    So the company set its scientists loose to find new chemicals to compensate, and what they came up with was a detergent, Tide Coldwater, with different enzymes and surfactants that work better in cold water.

    Tide Coldwater was introduced in 2005. Several competitors followed with their own cold-water formulas, including Purex from Henkel, Wisk from Sun Products and Biokleen from a small company by the same name.

    Do cold-water detergents work? Consumer Reports ranked Tide Coldwater among its top detergents last year, though some of its competitors did not rate as high.

    The chemical composition of the new cold-water detergents, which cost about the same as regular detergents, is “totally different” from what was found in detergents a decade ago, said Dr. Mueller-Kirschbaum of Henkel. Some even contain chemicals that coat fabric fibers so that they are less likely to absorb dirt in the interval before the next washing.

    Tide Coldwater, by far the best-selling cold-water detergent, now accounts for $150 million in sales in the United States and $60 million in Canada, the company says. By comparison, regular Tide has well more than $1 billion a year in sales in the United States alone.

    Kiem Ho, director of laundry care for Henkel, predicted that cold-water detergents would remain a niche, unless the government provided incentives to use them or the industry waged a major campaign.

    Sales data provided by Henkel shows that sales of cold-water detergents have declined by 16 percent in the last year in the United States. Procter’s data shows a 5 percent increase, although company officials acknowledge some stagnation in recent years.

    In Germany, a country dotted with wind turbines, solar panels and a Green Party that is part of the political mainstream, detergent makers waged an advertising war several years ago after they created detergents that worked equally well in all temperatures, including cold water.

    On television and in magazines, on detergent boxes and bottles, they promoted the environmental benefits of the new cold-water products.

    But the detergents languished on the shelves.

    “I’ve never even tried it,” said Ottilie Theis, 53, who was shopping for detergent recently in Philippsburg, a city in southwestern Germany. “I’m just skeptical that normal dirt and spots can be washed out with cooler water.”

    Dr. Mueller-Kirschbaum said he believed that consumer education, not advertising, would eventually change buying behavior. The average washing temperature is only slowly coming down in Germany, by about a degree a year, market research shows.

    At a Target store in suburban New Jersey, Lara Snyder said she wanted to be part of the cold-water revolution and had bought Tide Coldwater. But so far, she said, she’s not ready to switch over entirely.

    “I find that sometimes I wash it in cold,” Ms. Snyder said, “and have to wash it again in warm water.”

    Despite the challenges, Procter & Gamble officials remain undeterred.

    New advertising is promoting the virtues of Tide Coldwater, and the company is working with washing machine manufacturers to improve cold-water cycles in high-efficiency machines.

    In September, for instance, Whirlpool’s Maytag brand is introducing the Bravos XL, in which the cold cycle has been designed to work with cold-water detergents.

    Procter officials said they were encouraged by company surveys that showed more consumers were washing in cold water. When Tide Coldwater was introduced in 2005, just 30 percent of laundry loads were washed in cold water; now, it’s pushing 40 percent.

    “We have people moving from warm to cold,” said Dawn French, the company’s director of North America laundry products research and formula design. “But hot-water loads have remained very steady.”

    Currently, about 7 percent of white laundry loads are done in cold water, compared with 22 percent for lights and 57 percent for darks, according to company studies.

    “If we can chip away, load by load, we can get to 70 percent,” Ms. French said.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/17/bu...reception.html

  2. #2
    I've always used cold water never had a problem. Maybe some bleach for the socks and rags, but I've never used the warm or hot setting.
    cold wash, drip/air dry, dryer to fluff

    oh and tide is crap, overly abrasive and wasteful. Bad for your clothes, bad for your skin (especially children). There are some things more important then the brightest bright.

    Honestly, the type of washer you use will have a larger effect on how well your laundry is cleaned, and how much energy is wasted.

    EDIT:
    consumer reports to the rescue
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    oh and tide is crap, overly abrasive and wasteful. Bad for your clothes, bad for your skin (especially children). There are some things more important than the brightest bright.
    ^^ Yep. Our neighbors love to shower us with it though (or perhaps something even worse) via their noxious fumes...

  4. #4
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    In conjunction with a new type of washing machine, this should work wonders for energy and water consumption.

    Basically, instead of filling the machine with detergent before every wash, you top it off once and then the machine itself decides how much detergent to use. Because one of other problems is that people use too much detergent.

    Too bad that this particular machine is still quite expensive - ~1200€, compared to the other machines which start at 400€
    When the stars threw down their spears
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  5. #5
    I always wash at 30C (coldest setting) and have never had a problem or need to rewash anything.

    New and cheap washing machine (not like Khen described though, just normal) and detergent that says to wash at 30.

    Not sure why the article keeps going on about Germany, maybe because it pushes the agenda wanted to write the article? In the UK all the major detergent manufacturers now have and advertise a wash at 30 detergent.

  6. #6
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    I must confess that I did not see any advertising for "low temperature detergents".
    Then again, I don't watch too much TV these days anyway.

    Just looked at the detergent I have here - yepp, says "20 °C and upwards". Does not exactly proclaim it boldly, however.

    I might also point out that washing at 60 °C or even 90 °C is needed from time to time due to germs. Okay, you can also add desinfectants.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  7. #7
    Sheets, towels and such I wash at a warmer setting for germ reasons; most of the other clothes I wash in a combo warm/cold setting. Never had any issues and I use All Free and Clear due to my husband's eczema and having a small child. That perfume-y shit always causes a flare up for his skin.

  8. #8
    Wouldn't more of those surfactants use more energy for waste water treatment? How's it different from phosphates?

    I always use cold or warm wash cycle and cold rinse. Best thing to do is pre-treat stains (Fels Naptha or a dab of liquid detergent works better than stuff like Spray 'n Wash) and pre-soak. If a stain doesn't come out after first wash, don't put it in the dryer (the heat sets it in the fabric) but wash it again in another load.

    Now, when will they come up with cold-water dishwashing products? That seems like a big energy sucker, too.

  9. #9
    They need to figure out the existing dishwasher formula first. The banning of phospates in dish detergent has been playing nightmares in areas with hard water.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  10. #10
    Yeah, I hear phosphate D/W detergent is contraband in some areas, smuggled across state lines by the case.

  11. #11
    Luckily its not that bad here yet. States are banning it but Florida hasn't yet; still, most detergents have volunteered to remove phosphate nationwide, but only from consumer packagings. You can still find the pond killing good stuff at places that sell directly to businesses (Sams Club, Costco).
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  12. #12
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Yeah, I hear phosphate D/W detergent is contraband in some areas, smuggled across state lines by the case.
    There actually are reasons why we don't use that stuff for washing anymore, y'know? But god forbid there's a small chalk spot on the glass! Can't have that! Nevermind the stink of the river when all the fish died in it! The glasses are clean!

    What's next? Smuggling asbestos because clearly people are wrong about it? Using arsenic for candies because it's such a bright green?

    Sometimes I wonder about the intelligence of people. Really.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    god forbid there's a small chalk spot on the glass!
    Its more like chalk sized rocks clogging up nozzles and drains, but hey, lets rant and insult some more!
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  14. #14
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Its more like chalk sized rocks clogging up nozzles and drains, but hey, lets rant and insult some more!
    And? My parents' home is located in an area where the water is also very hard - and yet we seem to be able to cope without killing everything in the water around us...

    ... get some hydrochloric acid, water it down and it will dissolve any chalk stains and rocks right before your eyes.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  15. #15
    So....if laundry detergent is using new surfactants instead of phosphates, that work in cold water....what's up with dishwashing detergent?

  16. #16
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    So....if laundry detergent is using new surfactants instead of phosphates, that work in cold water....what's up with dishwashing detergent?
    They work differently - it's not the same washing process. But you might want to look out for dishwashing detergents using citrates.
    When the stars threw down their spears
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  17. #17
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    I should also clarify that the tip with hydrochloric acid is only for hardcore stains. The usual buildups should be removed with acetic acid - easier to handle. But you should know that already.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  18. #18
    We don't have lab access to hydrochloric acid, Khen. Hydrogen peroxide works well on lots of stains, though. And we use vinegar to clean the coffee maker and shower soap scum. Vinegar and baking soda are great cleaning products, often better than commercial ones.

    I'm not sure how the cleaning process is different from the dishwasher to the washing machine....other than the D/W uses water under pressure to spray food away....or why the type of detergent would be different? We all know not to put Dawn into the washing machine, or Tide in the dishwasher. (Although I have used Dawn in the shower before, to clean off poison ivy oils )

    Was asking for your chemist explanation about soaps/detergents and surfactants.

  19. #19
    Okay, I just want to clarify something: Just what the hell is an "increased amount of polymer technology" and "increased amount of surfactant chemistry"? Those aren't things you can increase. Gobbledeguck to impress the layman.

    Oh, I can imagine all sorts of things one could do to improve detergent efficacy at lower temperatures, and I have no doubt that Tide has tried some of them. Don't know if it's worth it compared to traditional detergents (I run cold cycles for most stuff anyways), but I can definitely see it being technically feasible.

  20. #20
    I didn't understand it, either. But I assumed their increased amounts meant more research that changed how their products were chemically created. Rather like all the new concentrated products, or ones with the HE symbol?

    Of course, I was one of those gullible front-load laundry machine users who fell for the HE symbol, until it was explained that all I had to do was use less of regular laundry detergent designed for top-load agitator machines.

    Does the same principle work for those "high performance" cars that claim only premium gas can be used? Or can those cars really operate just fine with a bottle of some other product called a "fuel performance enhancer"?


  21. #21
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    We don't have lab access to hydrochloric acid, Khen. Hydrogen peroxide works well on lots of stains, though. And we use vinegar to clean the coffee maker and shower soap scum. Vinegar and baking soda are great cleaning products, often better than commercial ones.
    Strange country you live in. We can buy stuff like pure potassium hydroxide (NaOH) or pure hydrochloric acid (HCl) in the drug store. It's not very expensive, too, 1 Kg of NaOH costs about 2€.
    Only thing more expensive would be pure alcohol - but that's due to taxes on alcohol in general.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  22. #22
    Wouldn't potassium hydroxide begin with a K?

    And if you mean like what we'd call "rubbing alcohol", that's super cheap here. So is hydrogen peroxide.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Its more like chalk sized rocks clogging up nozzles and drains, but hey, lets rant and insult some more!
    So? Descale the nozzles and drains, or wash the dishes (god forbid) in a sink with a sponge and washing up liquid.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Wouldn't potassium hydroxide begin with a K?

    And if you mean like what we'd call "rubbing alcohol", that's super cheap here. So is hydrogen peroxide.
    You're right about KOH, he probably either meant to say sodium hydroxide or give the correct chemical formula. As for 'rubbing alcohol', that's isopropanol; Khen was probably referring to ethanol, which it not easy to acquire in a normal store. The hydrogen peroxide you can normally buy in the store is significantly diluted from high purity stuff you could get from Sigma; H2O2 solutions go up to about 30% in water, but you only buy about 3% solutions at a drugstore.

    Khen, I haven't ever tried purchasing high purity chemicals outside of a lab setting, but can you honestly buy high purity HCl in a drug store? Why?! I can't imagine there's much of a market for it, and the liability concerns must be huge. I'm betting that anyone wanting that kinda stuff here would have to go directly to a chemical supply company. Not particularly difficult, I don't think, for non-controlled chemicals. (Things like ether are strictly controlled, though, which can be a pain even for labs.)

  25. #25
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    You can't buy ethanol easily here, but I know you can in Belgium (you need it to make e.g. Limoncello).
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  26. #26
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Yes, we actually can buy those high-purity chemicals in a drug store. Hydrochloric acid outside a lab setting is usually used to remove remains or spillages of mortar when building walls or houses. You dilute that stuff first, of course.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

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