Laptops, again

**wiggin** · 05-30-2011, 02:57 PM

I figured I'd toss this out there and see what comes back. I'm looking to replace my ancient ThinkPad laptop with something a little newer(old specs: dual Core 2 1.66 GHz, 1 GB RAM, crappy graphics and iffy screen). I'm looking for something on the relatively inexpensive side, but with still decent heft in the performance department. My main uses right now are image manipulation (ImageJ, Photoshop, Illustrator, SigmaPlot), computation (Matlab), statistical analysis (Jmp, R), and a handful of other relatively resource-intensive programs (e.g. Applied Biosystem's StepOne software).

While I do play games, they're mostly old and they're not a high priority, so things like graphics cards and high quality sound aren't as critical. I currently have a ~15" screen of dubious brightness and contrast, and it might be nice to improve upon that, though I doubt I want to increase the size. Weight is relevant but not all-important, and battery life is important but not critical. Price is definitely important - I'd like the total (including OS, though I might be able to buy that on the cheap from my institution) to come in under $1500, ideally closer to $1000.

So... any manufacturers or lines of particularly good repute lately? I've had pretty iffy experiences with Dell in the past, and I'm not sure how excited I am with either Lenovo or HP, but I'll consider anything.

**Dreadnaught** · 05-30-2011, 03:01 PM

I walked away from Dell laptops after mine practically caught fire during finals in college. I was briefly given a Lenovo for work and was pretty underwhelmed.

A bit of a larger question: How much do you travel with the laptop and what kinds of stuff do you actually do when you travel with it? It took me a few years before I finally admitted to myself that I don't work with my laptop when not at my desk, so I got a desktop for less money and a bigger screen.

**wiggin** · 05-30-2011, 03:25 PM

Currently, travel is pretty limited - a conference or two a year, mostly, and I generally bring it along on vacation/family trips. Otherwise, I cart it to and from lab every day, but it's not like I'm flying every week with this in my bag. Can't get a desktop, but the compy doesn't need to be super-portable, either. Definitely not the netbook type.

**Aimless** · 05-30-2011, 03:30 PM

Hmmm, lenovo's got a lot of sales ending like today...

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/c...oID=hpfa00961&

**Aimless** · 05-30-2011, 03:36 PM

Of the lenovos, I've heard the most good about the X1, the x220, and the x120e.

The X1 seems to be on sale for 1200

If want to splurge a little there's always the 13" samsung 9 series thingy... beautiful design and beautiful screen among other things, like the keyboard, hate the price

**NGS** · 05-30-2011, 03:43 PM

I know you're iffy on Dell, but the XPS 15 could be exactly what you're looking for here. It's their top of the line consumer model, and for nearly $1200 you get a quad-core i7 processor, 6gb ram, a decent graphics card, about 4-5 hours of battery life, and an incredible 1920x1080 screen. You'll be using resource intensive programs, and if you plan on multitasking I'd say a quad-core processor is a must. You mentioned the shitty screen you have now, and this 1080p screen is seriously one of the top two or three you'll find out there at this price range. Again, I know how you feel about Dell, but outside of their Latitude business lineup, this is the best build quality you'll get from them.

Like aimless said, Lenovo has a Memorial Day sale going on. I've just spend some time looking through those models and can tell you that if you're okay with a generic 1380x768 screen on many models (though some are upgradeable too 1600x900 and 1920x1080 (the latter is a $250 option)) the T, Y, and U series offer good value along with solid performance (depending on which model you choose), an awesome typing experience, and great durability.

I'd stay away from the X series, though, those are more designed for on-the-go business types who need portability and great battery life more than anything (though the performance is good).

The Samsung 9 series is more of a Macbook Air competitor, and will probably underperform to what you'd want it to do. The $1700 price tag hurts, too.

**Kazuha Vinland** · 05-30-2011, 04:15 PM

As for reliability, I would suggest not listening to personal experiences Dread, and rather take a look at statistics.

Source: Electronista

The most troubling issue for you should be display size. Since your previous laptop is rather old, it likely had a 16:10 format display instead of 16:9 which is standard now. That means you lose some space vertically. Resolution is another important aspect. For 13" laptops, I would recommend 1366x768, whereas 15" laptops should have at least 1600x900 (preferably 1920x1080).

13" 16:9 vs 15" 16:10

I think your anticipated price tag of 1000-1500$ is a bit over the top. Laptops rarely cost that much these days unless they are gaming monsters.

13" Alternative: Toshiba Portege R835-P56X (799$)

Spoiler:

15" Alternative: Dell XPS 15 (849$)

Spoiler:

As for my expertise, I've been running a computer thread recommending components for self-built desktop computers for 2 years now. The last 1 year, I've also covered laptops. Hence I got a hawk-eye on the market, and is probably among the best people to give you any suggestions.

Concerning what's coming up, you'll have AMD's Bulldozer generation of processors in one to two months. How far until we'll see those implemented in laptops however, is rather unknown. They might very well rival Intel when that time arrives, although personally I don't think it'll be a major victory, as AMD has fallen quite behind Intel for laptops (anything except low-power Brazos vs Atom).

**Aimless** · 05-30-2011, 04:27 PM

Say one thing about Dell, say they've got good deals. If you look hard enough you can always find a coupon or something

**wiggin** · 05-30-2011, 04:35 PM

Hmm. So, on Lenovo and Dell:

Does anyone have any recent experience with Dell? I had some very negative experiences with their hardware (and support) on both laptops and desktops in the past, but I haven't worked with them much lately. My wife's company gave her a Latitude D620 which seems to more or less work, but she isn't very discriminating when it comes to computers, and she obviously doesn't have to worry about hardware malfunctions (since her company will just give her a new one). I'm open to giving them another chance, but I'd like to hear more about their build quality and reliability first.

As for Lenovo, my main beef so far has been that the laptops (at least on lines going back 2+ years) have screens that aren't that great and are pretty dim. Their batteries have had some issues as well (and several AC adapters have gone kaput to boot), which makes me leery of buying them again.

If either of these concerns can be addressed, I'll be happy to give either another shot.

A few other notes: I'm not looking into the 13" or smaller lines, the debate is more whether I want a 14/15" or to go with the 17" and sacrifice portability. So that pretty much eliminates the Samsung 9 series, especially since I don't want to go that pricey.

Are other manufacturers (e.g. Toshiba, HP, Asus, Acer) worth looking at? I've heard some okay things about Toshiba but I've never used one.

**Kazuha Vinland** · 05-30-2011, 04:46 PM

The XPS line-up is as mentioned Dell's current premium line-up. The quality is stellar. You have to configure the components with sense, however. A quad core o7 processor produces A LOT of heat, so I wouldn't be too confident about having it shelled into a 15" laptop. That goes for any brand. Hence once you got the choice, I'd get the weaker (but more sensible) i5 2410M.

Lenovo has started producing a lot of home oriented laptops with quality that certainly does not match the business oriented ultraportable machines they got. It's not bad, but as can be seen from the sheet above, they have a nudge more errors than Dell. The screen being dim is not that much an issue anymore with LED displays. They're bright as hell. Yet when you want is contrast and better color representation, along with wide viewing angles. The Dell XPS kicks ass in those aspects. For a similar experience with Lenovo, you'd have to buy the X220 which is a 12" model with a (superior) IPS panel. Otherwise, they're worse.

If you desperately need an i7 processor, then a 17" would be alright.

**NGS** · 05-30-2011, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by wiggin

Are other manufacturers (e.g. Toshiba, HP, Asus, Acer) worth looking at? I've heard some okay things about Toshiba but I've never used one.

You might consider waiting for HP to refresh its Envy line (which should happen sometime this summer); it's an attractive, sturdy, aluminum unibody frame (I don't know if you care about style, but this means strength, too) with a lot of power inside, and all that's missing is a Sandy Bridge processor and higher resolution screen.

Asus has an absolute crapload of models so it's hard to recommend one. They're of very good quality, as Kazuha said, but not all of them are current models, so it might be worth your time to poke around the website.

Can't comment too much on the desktop replacement Toshiba and Acer laptops, sorry.

EDIT: Lenovo currently has a great 45% deal on the 16 inch Y560p laptop. It's got a quad-core i7 processor, 8 gigs of RAM, and a good graphics card. The only missing factor is a good screen for the size, as well as questionable durability.

How much time are you giving yourself to purchase?

**wiggin** · 05-30-2011, 06:56 PM

Ideally sooner rather than later. My laptop is on its last knees, really. Doesn't have to be today, but ideally this month.

While I'm at it - any suggestions on Win7 Home Premium v. Professional? The price differential seems rather large for the added functionality, but it might be nice.

I've been looking at Lenovo and I'm not sure I can justify the price/performance ratio, even with the sales.

**Kazuha Vinland** · 05-30-2011, 07:27 PM

Yeah, the Lenovo deal is not exactly what I'd call a bargain. And again, a quad i7 in a 15.6" laptop is asking for trouble after a year or two when dust gathers inside the fan and the air flow is reduced.

HP has primarily taken a heavy beating with their Pavilion-series. I'm not even sure how they manage to manufacture it and profit, when every second machine fails at some point it would seem. The Envy-series is better, but they still get hot and kinda loud.

There are admittedly no Asus laptops with quality displays. It's not a marketing area for them, as they as a brand qualify pretty much their whole line-up as either portable or gaming. While more reliable, the components in the Dell XPS 15 is certainly much better. And then I talk about trackpad, keyboard, speakers and display.

As for Home Premium Vs Professional. Don't even mind. Home Premium is what you get. The end.

**Ominous Gamer** · 05-31-2011, 12:28 AM

Dell's problem was volume, most if not all of big name OEMs were bitten by the exploding battery problem a few years back (even Apple). Since Dell had the largest consumer market share for the models that were effected (by, like, A LOT), they took the most flack for having poor quality.

The Dell Microsoft sent me has worked like a dream. The battery only recently reached its end of life (only holds about a 30-40 minute charge), and I was sent the laptop about the same time Windows 7 was released.

**Catgrrl** · 05-31-2011, 12:44 AM

Dell has awful customer service too, unless that has changed in the last five years since I've had one. Blech.

I love my Lenovo personally, got it last year during Lenovo's Labor Day sales for around $600. But I don't use mine for much more than Facebook, photo uploads, and forum trollings. I like Windows7 Home Premium, but again I'm not using the laptop for more than personal use so not sure if Professional is better for a work laptop.

**Tylor** · 05-31-2011, 01:11 AM

http://www.shopping.hp.com/series/ca...computer_store

The HP Envy series looks kinda nice to me. I like the style and I have been following closely on what they will be upgrading the graphics card to for the upcoming refresh next month. I haven't heard or seen many bad things about it. The only real drawback is the screen isn't 1600 x 900. They are supposedly the competitors against the MacBook Pro but I haven't been seeing very good rumors on the next g-card.

I hated my old Dell - and the customer service doesn't really know their products very well.

**Illusions** · 05-31-2011, 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by wiggin

As for Lenovo, my main beef so far has been that the laptops (at least on lines going back 2+ years) have screens that aren't that great and are pretty dim. Their batteries have had some issues as well (and several AC adapters have gone kaput to boot), which makes me leery of buying them again.

IBM/Lenovo do offer better screens, I have a very old T43, with a 1400x1050 High Density FlexView display. The default screens they have are sort of crap, but considering the age of this thing (single core 2 ghz Pentium M processor), a TFT monitor with near 180 degree viewing angle and 1400x1050 on a 15" display is pretty damn good. The color isn't perfect, but I've never purchased anything to fix it with. The thing is you have to find the better monitors as an upgrade option. Some models don't offer them, and Lenovo/IBM's online configurator doesn't always list it.

As for power. The best I can suggest is not to leave it plugged in all the time. I left it plugged in 8+ hours a day during work, and now nearly 24/7 and its down to 19% of total battery power. But thats just it though. Its still running. Its built like a brick, it isn't pretty, its power cable is now part electrical tape and zip ties, but it works.

**Aimless** · 05-31-2011, 08:55 AM

Probook? Elitebook?

**wiggin** · 05-31-2011, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Illusions

IBM/Lenovo do offer better screens, I have a very old T43, with a 1400x1050 High Density FlexView display. The default screens they have are sort of crap, but considering the age of this thing (single core 2 ghz Pentium M processor), a TFT monitor with near 180 degree viewing angle and 1400x1050 on a 15" display is pretty damn good. The color isn't perfect, but I've never purchased anything to fix it with. The thing is you have to find the better monitors as an upgrade option. Some models don't offer them, and Lenovo/IBM's online configurator doesn't always list it.

As for power. The best I can suggest is not to leave it plugged in all the time. I left it plugged in 8+ hours a day during work, and now nearly 24/7 and its down to 19% of total battery power. But thats just it though. Its still running. Its built like a brick, it isn't pretty, its power cable is now part electrical tape and zip ties, but it works.

Yeah, I agree mostly. My screen comments are mostly due to the fact that my lab has a lot of various Thinkpads floating around and most of them have displays that range from middling to awful; doesn't mean it's not possible to get something better with Lenovo, though, especially with improved LED tech out there.

As for power, I was really annoyed when my AC adapter just died after a few years, and that was not due to abuse (it's a really frustrating repair since your compy is essentially unusable until you get the part). I know my batteries are going to go eventually just because I abuse them (even with tweaked battery settings to reduce charge/discharge cycles); I just have had to replace them a bit more frequently than I would like.

The real reason I haven't been so excited about Lenovo is that their prices just don't seem to match available specs lately. I've been largely happy with my current Thinkpad.

Originally Posted by Aimless

Probook? Elitebook?

Yeah, any thoughts on HP in general? Obviously the Envy line is a bit outdated, but does anyone have recent experience with newer HP builds that might be relevant? We have a relatively old (3 years? 4?) 17" HP that is pretty but frustrating to use, but it works well for multimedia.

I know Kazuha's malfunction rates don't look too bad, but I strongly suspect that's dependent on the specific line you buy.

**Flixy** · 05-31-2011, 01:26 PM

I have an Elitebook which is okay, only had an issue with the AC adapter (and promptly got a new, more sturdy one). Don't know so much about laptops so I dont know how good it really is, to be honest.

**Kazuha Vinland** · 05-31-2011, 03:00 PM

I agree with Ominous Gamer. My old Dell Inspiron 6400 (from 2006) still works and hasn't been in for repairs once. My mom's Dell XPS M1550 (2007) tells a similar tale. This is just to use as counter toward the largely biased opinions presented in the thread.

As for display quality, you really cannot compare old and current models. Back then they actually used to have higher resolutions for some reason, with the exception of 1920x1080 on models these days. The LED-backlit panels, however, have completely killed the issue with dim displays. Rather yet we now struggle with a bland image thanks to poor dark levels, color representation and narrow viewing angles. With the Dell XPS, you'll certainly become more than satisfied in that respect. That screen is just Godly.

Wiggin is right to some extent about the statistics. A premium line-up has a slightly lower malfunction percentage than mainstream ones. So for Dell XPS, expect a lower number than that in the graphs. What I'm trying to say is: don't doubt its reliability. It's excellent.

HP, Gateway and Acer are the only models I tend to stay away from. Gateway is just cheap construction, HP can't do cooling for shit it appears and Acer tends to crack up after a year or two of use. That's represented far too well in the statistics. The Envy, Elitebook or Compaq line-up of HP are better, but I'm still edgy with those models as well. Why buy HP when there is obviously a lot of brands which are better?

Lenovo's mainstream models are shit. They are priced way too high as Lenovo got this reputation of high quality on their higher end line-ups, but as you can tell from the statistics image, the mainstream models bring that number down by A LOT. They do not got good displays at all. If you want a great Thinkpad, then buy a X1 or X220. Those are too small for your requirements, however.

NGS has been looking vigorously for laptops the last month(s), so he should be pretty up to date and hence suggests Dell XPS 15. I've been onto the market for a year, and also suggest the Dell XPS 15. Some trust in the new generation that actually has knowledge about the current market instead of the market of 2005, might not be too bad.

**Flixy** · 05-31-2011, 03:09 PM

Yeah, my HP does have some heating issues. But I do work in places with a lot of dust, so that doesn't help.

**Aimless** · 05-31-2011, 04:41 PM

Something from the Asus UL series may or may not be to your liking. Should have switchable graphics (can switch between integrated and discrete graphics chip as needed).

**Kazuha Vinland** · 05-31-2011, 05:25 PM

The Asus UL-series was replaced by the UxxJC series many months ago. The display is still mediocre, and it's more of an ultra-portable series unfortunately. In that category, the Toshiba has stolen its throne.

Edit: Sorry if I'm being too direct. I know the UL-series was a steal in its prime back in 2009, and that it's still selling pretty well. But to make suggestions, I think it's really important that you've updated yourself on the market at least two weeks ago at the latest. Getting a general knowledge about laptops also takes a while when it goes beyond gigahertz to panel type, TDP, physical attributes, battery vs power draw etc. There are a great deal of factors to weigh in when picking a laptop. I personally despise the crowd that says a MacBook Pro is the worst value around, while I also can say that there are a very few selections that are better (at least value wise) if you look around.

**Ominous Gamer** · 06-02-2011, 09:01 PM

Scarlett is learning to handle cups without stoppers. So of course she dumped a cup of water on my laptop last night.

Its incredibly easy to take a Dell apart now. I was able to pop out the keyboard without having to remove or unscrew anything from the bottom. Keyboard appears to be its own enclosed part (with a full lip) as well, which is a smart design to stop spills from flowing down under the keyboard and into the more expensive hardware.

Ordered a new keyboard today for $20 shipped from some random 3rd party website. Not a bad price to pay at all.

People always talk about the best/fastest hardware, but the market right now is in a position that the differences are so minuscule; its the small design decisions that really matter.

**Kazuha Vinland** · 06-02-2011, 09:11 PM

I couldn't agree more! The next time I buy a laptop, my focus will be much more oriented on build quality, display quality and speakers. A low-power CPU and a modest weight is essential, but as long as it's not a brick, it'll do. Since my Acer Aspire 3820T is practically falling apart, I'll just wait for Ivy Bridge for ultra efficient CPU & powerful integrated graphics that can play games on low / medium settings. Might upgrade my SSD to a larger unit, even if my current one is fast enough (Intel X25-M G2 80GB).

Edit: Might even try out a Chromebook in the mean-time, if it's just affordable enough.

**wiggin** · 06-02-2011, 09:48 PM

Hmm. I've done some looking based on your suggestions, and I have to agree that the xps does look like a pretty good deal out of the decent 'desktop replacement' market right now. I'm not super happy about the weight and thickness of the standard XPS 15, but its available options and price are much better than the xps 15z (which I'll admit is lighter and prettier).

I'll probably make a decision shortly (too bad there don't seem to be any in stores near me; I'd love to lift both up and get an idea of heft). Thanks for all of the input, guys!

**NGS** · 06-02-2011, 10:13 PM

You're welcome, happy buying!

**Aimless** · 06-11-2011, 10:21 PM

http://www.sagernotebook.com/index.p...elected_cat=10

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