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Thread: Tea Party Giffords Shooter Won't Face Jury...Yet

  1. #1

    Default Tea Party Giffords Shooter Won't Face Jury...Yet

    Oh wait, he's not a Tea Partier.

    I hate to sound so crass about something so terrible, but it really is worth re-emphasizing how the social and media interpretation of this incident really got out of control so fast.

    May 25, 2011
    Suspect in Shooting of Giffords Ruled Unfit for Trial

    By MARC LACEY

    TUCSON — A federal judge ruled Wednesday that Jared L. Loughner was not mentally competent to stand trial on charges that he opened fire at a constituent event for Representative Gabrielle Giffords in January, killing six and injuring her and 12 others.

    The ruling by Judge Larry A. Burns of Federal District Court suspends the court proceedings against Mr. Loughner while the suspect, who experts said has schizophrenia, undergoes treatment at a federal psychiatric facility in Springfield, Mo.

    Before the judge’s decision, Mr. Loughner disrupted the hearing with an outburst that prompted deputy marshals to carry him from the room. He will return to court on Sept. 21, when the judge will review again whether Mr. Loughner understands the 49 charges against him and can assist in his defense.

    It remains possible, legal experts said, that Mr. Loughner will never be found competent, and could remain in a psychiatric facility indefinitely, but prosecutors said they hoped the trial would resume. “Our goal has always been and always will be to go to trial,” said Dennis K. Burke, a United States attorney, speaking to reporters outside the courthouse.

    Mr. Loughner, 22, looked haggard when he walked into court in shackles. Shaved bald and standing erect during his first court appearance in January, he now has long sideburns and unkempt hair and walks stooped over. He rocked back and forth in his chair during the proceedings, buried his face in his hands midway through and interrupted the judge with an outburst.

    “Thank you for the freak show,” he appeared to say. “She died right in front of me. You’re treasonous.”

    Other witnesses heard him say, “Thank you for the free shot,” and court officials were reviewing the recording to confirm.

    A lawyer close to the case said that Mr. Loughner continues to believe that he killed Ms. Giffords and that he has clashed with his lawyer, Judy Clarke, who told him that the congresswoman survived a bullet wound to the head.

    Expecting that he might act out, security personnel were positioned within two feet of Mr. Loughner and quickly spirited him out of the room. He was escorted back moments later and told the judge he would prefer to watch on a television screen in an adjoining holding cell.

    Judge Burns’s ruling that Mr. Loughner was incompetent followed the recommendations of two experts, Christina Pietz, a psychologist who works for the Bureau of Prisons and was appointed by the prosecution, and Dr. Matthew Carroll, a psychiatrist in private practice in San Diego appointed by the judge.

    Dr. Pietz conducted 12 interviews with Mr. Loughner over nine hours. She found that his thoughts were random and disorganized and that he suffered delusions and offered nonsensical answers to her questions. She diagnosed schizophrenia.

    Similarly, Dr. Carroll found after five interviews over seven hours that Mr. Loughner experienced delusions, bizarre thoughts and hallucinations and appeared to suffer from paranoid schizophrenia, the judge said. Dr. Carroll considered whether Mr. Loughner was faking a mental illness but reported that he showed no signs of that, the judge said.

    Judge Burns said he reviewed the hours of videotaped interviews and agreed with the experts’ conclusions. “At the present time, Mr. Loughner does not have a rational understanding of these proceedings,” Judge Burns said, ordering him treated for up to four months.

    Paul G. Cassell, a criminal justice expert at the S. J. Quinney College of Law at the University of Utah, said psychiatric evaluations would continue to determine whether Mr. Loughner’s condition has improved. If the experts believe that Mr. Loughner can be rendered competent through psychiatric treatment, then he can be forced to take medications, said Mr. Cassell, a former federal judge.

    Forcing medication raises troubling issues for society, said Cynthia Hujar Orr, a lawyer in San Antonio who is a past president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. “Is it ethical and proper to help someone regain competence just to go after them for a death penalty offense or a murder offense?” she asked.

    Mr. Loughner’s parents, Randy and Amy, who were in the courtroom, sobbed when the judge said experts believed the suspect’s mental health had been in decline for two years. Since his arrest, Mr. Loughner’s classroom outbursts at Pima Community College here, which expelled him, and his bizarre rantings on the Internet have come to light.

    Before court, prosecutors met with shooting victims to prepare them for the judge’s ruling and let them know that it could be years before Mr. Loughner is ever tried. The case of John W. Hinckley Jr. was mentioned, although he did stand trial for the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan and was found not guilty by reason of insanity in 1982, a result that led to passage of a law narrowing the use of the insanity defense in federal courts.

    Mr. Loughner faces separate state charges and those will also be suspended until he is determined to be competent, officials said. “It is always better to hold criminals accountable, but we may not be able to go forward if the mental health issues are insurmountable,” said Kathleen Mayer, the deputy prosecutor in Pima County. “We do know he won’t be a threat to anyone anymore.”

    One of the dozen or so victims and their families who attended the hearing, Eric Fuller, who hit by bullet fragments in his back that morning, said it was clear to him that Mr. Fuller was ill.

    “The mere appearance, very disheveled, very disorganized, you don’t have to be a professional psychologist to know the boy is disturbed,” Mr. Fuller said.

    Judge Burns said he had received two letters from Mr. Loughner since his arrest, both complaining about his legal representation. The judge told Mr. Loughner’s court-appointed lawyer, Ms. Clarke, that he did not intend to take up the issues raised in the letters because he considered them a consequence of Mr. Loughner’s mental illness.

    Mr. Loughner was arrested after being wrestled to the ground by bystanders at the scene of the Jan. 8 shooting in a grocery store parking lot where Ms. Giffords, an Arizona Democrat, was meeting with constituents. Mr. Loughner is charged with walking up to the congresswoman and shooting her, then turning his gun on others in the crowd. Among the dead were John Roll, a federal judge in Tucson, and 9-year-old Christina-Taylor Green, both of whom were mentioned prominently in a speech that President Obama gave here shortly after the shooting.

    Ms. Giffords has been undergoing rehabilitation for a severe brain injury at a hospital in Houston. Doctors say she is making steady progress, and she recently traveled to Florida to watch her husband, Capt. Mark E. Kelly, pilot the space shuttle Endeavour on its final mission into space.

    John Schwartz contributed reporting from New York.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/26/us/26loughner.html

  2. #2
    Or how the media totally ignored the calls for the killing of the Wisconsin governor over the union bill. Apparently it's only bad when right-wingers make death threats.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    What media are you two talking about? I recall newscasts and written articles condemning any and all death threats made to Walker.

    edit

    Dread: yes, that is crass. It's not even political...the shooter is mentally ill.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Oh wait, he's not a Tea Partier.
    A fact that surely renders the Tea Party 'a-okay' and above all criticism, because all of those critics are in agreement with awful, lying scum-bags who love Stalin over Reagan and I'm sorry I just can't finish this thought because of how horrible everything around it is.

    Too fucking bad that something was branded as Tea Party lunacy when it was just plain old lunacy. The skies know there's enough lunacy within the Tea Party movement to ridicule and point at.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  5. #5
    Except there really isn't any more lunacy in it than in the anti-Iraq war movement.

  6. #6
    I guess this is how Jews feel when I gush about Nazism
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    What media are you two talking about? I recall newscasts and written articles condemning any and all death threats made to Walker.
    Really? Huh, I don't recall them. Now that I know about them, I am shocked, shocked that those foreign posters like Nessus who keep such an eagle eye on the US media for news of outrages either missed those newscasts and articles or decided they weren't worth posting on here.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Really? Huh, I don't recall them. Now that I know about them, I am shocked, shocked that those foreign posters like Nessus who keep such an eagle eye on the US media for news of outrages either missed those newscasts and articles or decided they weren't worth posting on here.
    I'm awful sowwy my political views aren't in alignment with yours, given how objectively better yours are, just look at the polls!

    Wait what
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Except there really isn't any more lunacy in it than in the anti-Iraq war movement.
    I'd argue there is less lunacy.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    I'd argue there is less lunacy.
    I think you might be right.

  11. #11
    Is he Kathaksung?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  12. #12
    Because the Iraq war was such a blinding success that you'd have to be fringe extremist to be opposed to it.

  13. #13
    And unlimited tax and spend has been such a blinding success that you'd have to be a fringe extremist to be opposed to more of it.

  14. #14
    Or how the media totally ignored the calls
    for the killing of the Wisconsin governor
    over the union bill. Apparently it's only bad
    when right-wingers make death threats.
    Yeah, and if the Wisconsin governor was then shot by a lunatic with no agenda, no one should be surprised if people at first think someone to do with the unions was involved. So the tea party QQing over initally getting the blame is pretty pathetic. You wanna bring that kind of rhetoric, you have to accept it might blow up in your face. But then that whole movement is pretty pathetic, so no big shocks here.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Yeah, and if the Wisconsin governor was then shot by a lunatic with no agenda, no one should be surprised if people at first think someone to do with the unions was involved. So the tea party QQing over initally getting the blame is pretty pathetic. You wanna bring that kind of rhetoric, you have to accept it might blow up in your face. But then that whole movement is pretty pathetic, so no big shocks here.
    Except "the right has many members willing to use force to enforce their agenda" has been a consistent theme in the media for years. The media isn't in the habit of changing their storylines without massive evidence to the contrary (which rarely exist).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Except "the right has many members willing to use force to enforce their agenda" has been a consistent theme in the media for years. The media isn't in the habit of changing their storylines without massive evidence to the contrary (which rarely exist).
    Hell, screw the media. It's been a consistent theme from various posters on here. Posters who also consistently insist I and a few others are speaking of "old history" when we reference labor violence.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Except "the right has many members willing to use force to enforce their agenda" has been a consistent theme in the media for years.
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  18. #18

  19. #19
    You'd put the extremer ends of the American right in the same list as those *banned terrorist organisations* , and you wonder why the media finds them a little bit unnerving??

  20. #20
    Erm, a vast majority of terrorist organizations from the 1920s onwards were left wing.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  21. #21
    You brought them up, not me.

  22. #22
    So it's rather odd to consistently portray the far right as being the only part of the political spectrum capable of terrorism, no? Even in the US, it's the far left that was responsible for the vast majority of terrorist attacks from the 1970s onwards. It just so happens that one far-right idiot succeeded in killing a lot of people.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  23. #23
    I think the point he's trying to make is that idiocy is neither left nor right wing.

  24. #24
    And my point is that the media narrative is that only the right is capable of violence.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #25
    Does the current US left ("there's no left left"; I know, I know) have many Stalinists? Our own communist aside, of course.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  26. #26
    It has trade unionists, who don't have much of a problem with threatening or using violence against opponents.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #27
    True enough, though the labour movement is taking some legislative blows atm., and the labour movement isn't all that similar to the hey-days. From what little I've read.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    True enough, though the labour movement is taking some legislative blows atm., and the labour movement isn't all that similar to the hey-days. From what little I've read.
    It's certainly weaker than before, but I'm willing to bet that on a day-to-day basis, there are far more acts of violence perpetrated by trade unionists than by loony right-wingers.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #29
    How about the number of fatalities caused? Not on a day-to-day basis, although you do have more than one killing per day, don't you? But few are politically motivated, one'd hope.

    Wait, would one? I'm not sure.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  30. #30
    Work-site "accidents" do happen. I doubt they carry out too many murders, but intimidation and low-levels of violence are the norm. The bigger point here is that more people are affected by trade unionist violence than by the large-scale right-wing terrorist attacks which tend to happen once a decade (along with a handful of murders of abortion doctors).

    As for political violence, trade unionists have certainly threatened it in the recent wave of anti-union legislation.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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