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Thread: Will Stories Like This Become More Common?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Just to be clear here you would be A-OK with the amputation of limbs for BIID? Kid's 13 and parent's says its good - you are all right with that?
    I'm not a doctor and neither are you. These are decisions that should be made by parents, doctors, and children and based on an honest assessment of the risks. You know, like all other medical decisions. Again, it's strange how quickly you turn on parents when they make decisions you disapprove of.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    The propaganda article aside, and generally speaking, I would think its a bad idea to give gender transition hormone treatment to adolescents. There's a lot of development going on, physical, mental and social, and injecting extra hormones into the mix can only confuse the situation for anyone. Who the hell knows who or what they really are until they are fully baked adults? I'm not against gender transition, but let kids grow up before they decide to alter their bodies with hormones, and especially surgery. Anecdotally, my daughter went to high school with a transitioning teen who was taking testosterone at age 15. I thought medical malpractice and dumb parenting at the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I've known four teens who were transitioning in high school, all friends of my daughter (and another one in college). Three were female to male and one male to female. Only one was taking hormones, the rest were just taking new names, flipping their pronouns, dressing opposite gender. From what little I knew of them, they all seemed to be doing okay, including the one taking testosterone. Their families and the community I lived in at the time were very accepting, and I think family and community condemnation is the major obstacle for trans kids leading to the sort of crisis you're talking about. I'm not a doctor, but it seemed to me at the time that interrupting whatever natural biological development that's going on at age 15 with hormonal injections might cause some lasting harm, whatever gender the child ends up settling on (maybe Lolli could offer a more knowledgeable comment on that....) I confess I was taken aback at the time by the number of kids desiring to transition and I suspected some of it might be on the level of experimentation or part of a process of self-discovery. I don't know where any of those kids are, on a gender basis, now - they'll be in their early 20's - though I know at least one who was biologically female is still using a masculine name.
    Undergoing puberty causes lasting changes in and of itself—changes which often make transition more difficult and less satisfactory in adult age; treatment with puberty blockers can help trans youths avoid such unwanted lasting changes. Going through such an emotionally and socially fraught period in one's life as one's teens in the wrong type of body—as the wrong gender—can also be distressing and harmful. The majority of cis men and women probably don't have particularly strong doubts about their gender and sexuality before they're "fully baked adults"; trans identity—or eg. minority sexual orientation—shouldn't be assumed to be much more suspect than being cis and straight in adolescence. The concerns and objections you raise can all be raised against our treatment of the standard straight cis kid experience.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  3. #33
    That's all true, except for the reality that kids are often not equipped to make long-term medical decisions. The emergence of puberty blockers and the rise of trans awareness has caught the medical community, parents, educators and teens in a storm. There's no data, just layers of anecdote and politics.

    If we're creating a society where it's normal for gender identity/expression to be something that is explored in youth (which is good!), we have to actually enable exploration and not set up a pipeline for mostly permanent drastic medical intervention.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    ...
    If we're creating a society where it's normal for gender identity/expression to be something that is explored in youth (which is good!), we have to actually enable exploration and not set up a pipeline for mostly permanent drastic medical intervention.
    You mean stop chopping up kids while they explore?
    .

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I'm not a doctor and neither are you. These are decisions that should be made by parents, doctors, and children and based on an honest assessment of the risks. You know, like all other medical decisions. Again, it's strange how quickly you turn on parents when they make decisions you disapprove of.
    This is such a cop out - do you think Reimer's parent's were negligent? Or do they wash their hands of it all because some "expert" reccomended this horror?

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...r13-story.html

    "David Reimer, the Canadian man raised as a girl for most of the first 14 years of his life in a highly touted medical experiment that seemed to resolve the debate over the cultural and biological determinants of gender, has died at 38. He committed suicide May 4 in his hometown of Winnipeg, Canada.

    At 8 months of age, Reimer became the unwitting subject of “sex reassignment,” a treatment method embraced by his parents after his penis was all but obliterated during a botched circumcision. The American doctor whose advice they sought recommended that their son be castrated, given hormone treatments and raised as a girl. The physician, Dr. John Money, supervised the case for several years and eventually wrote a paper declaring the success of the gender conversion.

    Known as the “John/Joan” case, it was widely publicized and gave credence to arguments presented in the 1970s by feminists and others that humans are sexually neutral at birth and that sex roles are largely the product of social conditioning.

    But, in fact, the gender conversion was far from successful. Money’s experiment was a disaster for Reimer that created psychological scars he ultimately could not overcome.

    Reimer’s story was told in the 2000 book “As Nature Made Him,” by journalist John Colapinto. Reimer said he cooperated with Colapinto in the hope that other children could be spared the miseries he experienced."

    This fucking quack?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

    "During subsequent appointments with Reimer and Reimer's twin brother Brian, Money forced the two to rehearse sexual acts, with David playing the bottom role as his brother "[pressed] his crotch against" David's buttocks. Money also forced the two children to strip for "genital inspections", occasionally taking photos. Money justified these criminal acts by claiming that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity".[4]"

    What level of accountability should the parent's face?

  6. #36
    Do you think doctors who encourage cancer patients to undergo chemo are guilty of negligence if those patients die from chemo?

    You'd be the first one up in arms if parents were punished for their terrible parenting.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    You mean stop chopping up kids while they explore?
    That's one way to put it I suppose

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    What level of accountability should the parent's face?
    What about the botched circumcision at the beginning of this story? Should the parents be held accountable for that?
    Carthāgō dēlenda est

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    That's all true, except for the reality that kids are often not equipped to make long-term medical decisions.
    They aren't making the decisions. The decision to put a trans kid on eg. puberty blockers is ultimately made by their parents and physicians.

    The emergence of puberty blockers and the rise of trans awareness has caught the medical community, parents, educators and teens in a storm. There's no data, just layers of anecdote and politics.
    It's always funny seeing people in the US trying to figure out the modern world several decades after the rest of us.

    If we're creating a society where it's normal for gender identity/expression to be something that is explored in youth (which is good!), we have to actually enable exploration and not set up a pipeline for mostly permanent drastic medical intervention.
    Fine, put all kids on puberty blockers until they're done exploring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    This is such a cop out - do you think Reimer's parent's were negligent? Or do they wash their hands of it all because some "expert" reccomended this horror?

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...r13-story.html

    "David Reimer, the Canadian man raised as a girl for most of the first 14 years of his life in a highly touted medical experiment that seemed to resolve the debate over the cultural and biological determinants of gender, has died at 38. He committed suicide May 4 in his hometown of Winnipeg, Canada.

    At 8 months of age, Reimer became the unwitting subject of “sex reassignment,” a treatment method embraced by his parents after his penis was all but obliterated during a botched circumcision. The American doctor whose advice they sought recommended that their son be castrated, given hormone treatments and raised as a girl. The physician, Dr. John Money, supervised the case for several years and eventually wrote a paper declaring the success of the gender conversion.

    Known as the “John/Joan” case, it was widely publicized and gave credence to arguments presented in the 1970s by feminists and others that humans are sexually neutral at birth and that sex roles are largely the product of social conditioning.

    But, in fact, the gender conversion was far from successful. Money’s experiment was a disaster for Reimer that created psychological scars he ultimately could not overcome.

    Reimer’s story was told in the 2000 book “As Nature Made Him,” by journalist John Colapinto. Reimer said he cooperated with Colapinto in the hope that other children could be spared the miseries he experienced."

    This fucking quack?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

    "During subsequent appointments with Reimer and Reimer's twin brother Brian, Money forced the two to rehearse sexual acts, with David playing the bottom role as his brother "[pressed] his crotch against" David's buttocks. Money also forced the two children to strip for "genital inspections", occasionally taking photos. Money justified these criminal acts by claiming that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity".[4]"

    What level of accountability should the parent's face?
    What does this story have to do with the discussion at hand—trans rights in 2022, in case you'd forgotten—other than as an illustration of how terribly wrong things can go when parents and physicians try to force their children to conform to black-and-white cis-preferential societal norms? If you're so worried, stop allowing parents to have their kids circumcised.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  10. #40
    Its amazing that y'all are dwelling on the circumcision and not the forced incest and castration. Crazy.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Its amazing that y'all are dwelling on the circumcision and not the forced incest and castration. Crazy.
    Why would we dwell on something that's completely irrelevant to the discussion you moron?
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  12. #42
    Because, obviously it's not irrelevant. Gender reassignment is wrong and gender reassignment in minors is child abuse. Permitting someone to question the "gender" assigned to them by God is the same thing as forcing another "gender" onto them when they identify as cis-gender, as Reimer did.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  13. #43
    Yes but outside crazytown i mean
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  14. #44
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Doesn't that case show that being in the 'wrong gendered' body can lead to psychological problems? Which is exactly why trans people want to be able to change theirs?
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Doesn't that case show that being in the 'wrong gendered' body can lead to psychological problems? Which is exactly why trans people want to be able to change theirs?
    Isn't 'being in' the wrong gendered body a psychological problemphenomenon?
    .

  16. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Doesn't that case show that being in the 'wrong gendered' body can lead to psychological problems? Which is exactly why trans people want to be able to change theirs?
    It shows that attempting to change the birth gender during childhood is fraught with peril. Again, if you are an adult and want to mutilate your body, that's your choice. But can children consent to such a choice? Puberty blockers, HRT, Testosterone, mastectomies and other crazy shit should not be given to kids.

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Its amazing that y'all are dwelling on the circumcision and not the forced incest and castration. Crazy.
    I'm just curious - you seem to have a problem with parents deciding to have their kids subjected to medical procedures which irreversibly modify their body - your main objection appears to be the negative long-term consequences.
    And yet, you share a story which begins with a parent-approved circumcision that permanently and irreversibly destroys their son's penis (mind you, if it weren't for this procedure, the rest of the story would never have happened) - and you seem to be absolutely ok with that part. How come?
    Carthāgō dēlenda est

  18. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by BalticSailor View Post
    I'm just curious - you seem to have a problem with parents deciding to have their kids subjected to medical procedures which irreversibly modify their body - your main objection appears to be the negative long-term consequences.
    And yet, you share a story which begins with a parent-approved circumcision that permanently and irreversibly destroys their son's penis (mind you, if it weren't for this procedure, the rest of the story would never have happened) - and you seem to be absolutely ok with that part. How come?
    Almost 40% of men get circumcised, it is extremely common and safe medical procedure that has medical benefits (admittedly a point of debate). That said the attempt to change the discussion is cute but try to stay on topic or create another thread. On the topic of this thread, do you think social pressures can impact someone's belief in their gender identity?

  19. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Undergoing puberty causes lasting changes in and of itself—changes which often make transition more difficult and less satisfactory in adult age; treatment with puberty blockers can help trans youths avoid such unwanted lasting changes. Going through such an emotionally and socially fraught period in one's life as one's teens in the wrong type of body—as the wrong gender—can also be distressing and harmful. The majority of cis men and women probably don't have particularly strong doubts about their gender and sexuality before they're "fully baked adults"; trans identity—or eg. minority sexual orientation—shouldn't be assumed to be much more suspect than being cis and straight in adolescence. The concerns and objections you raise can all be raised against our treatment of the standard straight cis kid experience.
    I forgot you were a doctor. Do you do work like this - block puberty for young children that believe (presumably along with their parents) they are trans and provide the medical help for them to switch genders?
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  20. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Almost 40% of men get circumcised, it is extremely common and safe medical procedure that has medical benefits (admittedly a point of debate). That said the attempt to change the discussion is cute but try to stay on topic or create another thread. On the topic of this thread, do you think social pressures can impact someone's belief in their gender identity?
    Seeing as gender identity is entirely the product of social pressure in the first place. . .
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  21. #51
    https://inspiredteentherapy.com/para...er-transition/

    Another long and fascinating read comparing the lobotomy trajectory and that of childhood transitioning. I believe it will take even longer than it did for lobotomy's to go out of fashion simply due to the increased politicization and the power the Ts have in society.

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