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Thread: 2020 US Presidential election

  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Assuming the Supreme Court refuses to stop this, Pelosi would become president if there is no official result by Jan. 21.
    Suppose Barr, some time in December, produces evidence for fraud in key states, saying Trump would have won those states without the fraud, and therefore Trump is the winner. And lets say those states have Republican governors/ legislatures that support Barr's conclusions...
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  2. #242
    There is actually precedence for the election result not being accepted because of alleged fraud. Specifically the Democrat got more votes but both parties claimed they had won enough states to cloud the result but the Republican was eventually accepted as having been elected. Of course this was when the Democrats were the racist party and the Republicans weren't.

    The compromise of 1877 was the result.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Popular theory is Trump threw the election delay grenade to distract discussion away from the catastrophic economic data reported yesterday.

    He knows the election can't and won't be postponed, but the more he complains about it (illegal immigrants voting, mail-in voter fraud, now should have been delayed since covid-caused voter suppression makes it illegitimate...), the more seeds he believes he is planting in the event he decides to declare a loss as fraudulent.

    If the election is close, especially in several swing states, he will challenge it for sure. But if it's a landslide, he'll likely say it was driven by voter fraud. Question is what happens next when he does that - what if Republican state legislatures and governors refuse to certify election results until a fraud investigation is conducted? What if the justice department announces a sweeping fraud investigation that will take months to complete? What if the Senate starts holding extended fraud hearings? What if Trump declares himself winner and announces HE will be inaugurated on January whatever, and not Biden? What if Biden sues and the Supreme Court sides with the Republicans?

    EDIT: None of this seems far-fetched to me, given what we've seen out of Trump and the vast majority of the Republican party in the last 4 years. Fuzzy, care to talk me down?
    Fraud hearings won't stop things. If you have certified results you have certified results, and the sitting President and Veep are out on their butts on January 20th regardless. The way they'd screw with things is for enough states to refuse to certify so there is no person with a majority of electoral votes. Then it goes to the House to decide (itself sitting since January 3rd), except each state's bloc of Reps has a single vote. If the GOP controls a majority of the state delegations and they all toe the party line, they select the President from the top two (which typically is going to be one ticket, not split between the parties).
    If those proceedings are still going on by the 21st, the Speaker becomes Acting President. If proceedings still haven't been resolved by March 4th things get more confusing. At that point the Vice President takes over as if elected, but there can't be an established Veep then either, that contingency is really only supposed to come into play when the President-elect died before assuming office. It may be the Speaker becomes President at that point, or more likely they just be Acting President until the House stops dicking around and finally approves two of the candidates as President and Veep.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Suppose Barr, some time in December, produces evidence for fraud in key states, saying Trump would have won those states without the fraud, and therefore Trump is the winner. And lets say those states have Republican governors/ legislatures that support Barr's conclusions...
    States with GOP governors and legislators and states Trump is definitely going to win add up to ~245 electoral votes.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Fraud hearings won't stop things. If you have certified results you have certified results, and the sitting President and Veep are out on their butts on January 20th regardless. The way they'd screw with things is for enough states to refuse to certify so there is no person with a majority of electoral votes. Then it goes to the House to decide (itself sitting since January 3rd), except each state's bloc of Reps has a single vote. If the GOP controls a majority of the state delegations and they all toe the party line, they select the President from the top two (which typically is going to be one ticket, not split between the parties).
    If those proceedings are still going on by the 21st, the Speaker becomes Acting President. If proceedings still haven't been resolved by March 4th things get more confusing. At that point the Vice President takes over as if elected, but there can't be an established Veep then either, that contingency is really only supposed to come into play when the President-elect died before assuming office. It may be the Speaker becomes President at that point, or more likely they just be Acting President until the House stops dicking around and finally approves two of the candidates as President and Veep.
    Would states be able to certify congressional results but not the presidential results? I mean practically - I'm pretty sure there's nothing explicitly forbidding that, but since AFAIK all states use a single ballot for all the elections up for vote, would they be able to actually say the right half of each ballot is valid, but the left half is fraudulent or whatever?

  6. #246
    I think technically they get certified separately but am not sure.

    What happened in 1877?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Would states be able to certify congressional results but not the presidential results? I mean practically - I'm pretty sure there's nothing explicitly forbidding that, but since AFAIK all states use a single ballot for all the elections up for vote, would they be able to actually say the right half of each ballot is valid, but the left half is fraudulent or whatever?
    Not only would they, they have to do them seperately*. They're different vote results, done on different days. The certified results for the Presidential election sent to Washington are the votes made by the state's Electors.

    *in fact, there is no certification sent to Washington for Congress-critters, AFAIK. A state's congressional delegation are its concern, not the Feds. Federal constitution and law just dictates how they're elected.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I think technically they get certified separately but am not sure.

    What happened in 1877?
    Classic behind-closed-doors deal in a smoke-filled room between the Democrats and the Republicans. Several states sent in more than one set of results, accusing the other set of being the product of electoral fraud. Congress set up a "special commission" to resolve the dispite, but it never did anything AFAIK. Instead, as a result of the deal, the Democrats ion Congress accepted as official the certifications that gave Hayes a one-vote electoral majority when the results were formally tallied.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  8. #248
    It is unbelievable what a spectacularly sad, pathetic loser the "leader" of the "free world" is:

    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  9. #249
    I literally just came to this thread to post that video myself. Jawdroppingly shocking even by his standards. WTAF!?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I literally just came to this thread to post that video myself. Jawdroppingly shocking even by his standards. WTAF!?
    You're just mad because he comprehends extraordinarily well, probably better than anyone who's been interviewed in a long time.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    You're just mad because he comprehends extraordinarily well, probably better than anyone who's been interviewed in a long time.
    That video just ruined my lunch. I feel sick.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  12. #252
    Should let Trump keep talking, so that there can be no doubts about the extent of American conservatives' self-debasement.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  13. #253
    Might have to revise my opinion of The Lincoln Project:

    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  14. #254
    Trump is a conservative? Is he anything besides Trump?

  15. #255
    The Lincoln Project represents the best of America's conservative movement. A flickering flame of light amongst the darkness. Any decent conservative must vote Democrat this November, then hopefully like a phoenix from the ashes of what Trump has done to the GOP might be rebuilt a decent party that existed in the past.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The Lincoln Project represents the best of America's conservative movement. A flickering flame of light amongst the darkness. Any decent conservative must vote Democrat this November, then hopefully like a phoenix from the ashes of what Trump has done to the GOP might be rebuilt a decent party that existed in the past.
    Those guys created a system and ran a strategy that led directly to allowing Donald Trump to be elected president and take their party from them. The very least they can do is help take him out, after that they should all fuck off.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  17. #257
    Most of those people were far from the halls of power before Trump.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #258
    Remember when "It's the economy, stupid!" became the most prescient political meme?

    Well, now "It's the virus, stupid!"



    edit: I'd like to know how Trump's political advisors (and the GOP) can say expanded unemployment benefits "incentivizes" people to NOT work, when there are no jobs to replace the jobs they've lost. It's nothing but a meaningless trope. And it's crazy hypocrisy coming from the party that championed "Trickle Down Economics" when it benefited the corporate and political class.....but can't see the damage that's done 'downstream' to the working class.

    Maybe they just hate blue collar workers, women, elderly, minorities, immigrants, and/or the working poor...and see them as sucking off the teet of gummint? If people can't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, they're just lazy good-for-nothings looking for a hand-out.

    Or Give me Liberty or Give me covid...don't tell us what to do, we have the RIGHT to be selfish assholes. Freeeedom means not caring about others but still saying we're Pro-Life! We'll vote for Trump even tho he's a liar and grifter, destroying the Republic, he's just the Authoritarian we were looking for?!
    Last edited by GGT; 08-04-2020 at 12:32 AM.

  19. #259
    Trump literally acting like the Mafia now. WTF?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53633315
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #260
    Aimless what do you think of this one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Most of those people were far from the halls of power before Trump.
    Most of them are Bush era Republican strategists and political consultants, or have otherwise spent most of their careers as part of the Republican party machine so I'd say choobs take is pretty spot on.
    Sticks and stones take a toll on me but they aren't your strongest weaponry
    You can take your shots but you'd best prepare, I can see smoke rising in the air
    Every move has a counteract, to turn the tides with a planned attack
    You push me down and the rest will rise but first I'm singing a battle cry

  22. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Aimless what do you think of this one?

    It will speak to people who enjoyed the worst part of Independence Day

    I think it's a good ad; I just don't think these ads are all that relevant. They're media-savvy strategists but I don't think they're persuading anyone of any importance. They seem to mostly be trying to console & redeem their Never Trump (But Everything That Created Trumpism) brothers. I appreciate their secondary and much less publicized goal of unseating Trump's enablers in Congress; I'd rather see their resources being spent on mobilizing opposition to those corrupt fuckwits at the state and local levels—and helping to build momentum for electoral reform. Being American Republicans, I think most of them would rather have their teeth pulled out one by one than support long-term electoral reform that might benefit Democrats; they'd prefer to keep an inordinate focus on a small group of mythical principled conservatives.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  23. #263
    I think they might actually be an effective political tool, doesn't mean I have to like the people behind them.

    They're clearly aimed at moderate Republicans torn between party loyalty/their default voting behavior and dislike of Trump which, if the election is close, could end up a being key demographic.

    I agree the resources would be better spent on electoral reform and anti-corruption efforts but those are long term goals and the election is 3 months away.
    Sticks and stones take a toll on me but they aren't your strongest weaponry
    You can take your shots but you'd best prepare, I can see smoke rising in the air
    Every move has a counteract, to turn the tides with a planned attack
    You push me down and the rest will rise but first I'm singing a battle cry

  24. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I think they might actually be an effective political tool, doesn't mean I have to like the people behind them.

    They're clearly aimed at moderate Republicans torn between party loyalty/their default voting behavior and dislike of Trump which, if the election is close, could end up a being key demographic.

    I agree the resources would be better spent on electoral reform and anti-corruption efforts but those are long term goals and the election is 3 months away.
    I guess what I'm thinking is that the contingent of Republican voters who haven't already resolved to vote against Trump but will do so because of these ads... must be 1. vanishingly small, and 2. unfavorably distributed across the US.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  25. #265
    I dunno. It's never just one thing that causes people to make a decision like that. Seeing that people that they, for some bizarre reason, look up to or regard as 'sensible' saying Trump's a piece of crap can't hurt.
    Sticks and stones take a toll on me but they aren't your strongest weaponry
    You can take your shots but you'd best prepare, I can see smoke rising in the air
    Every move has a counteract, to turn the tides with a planned attack
    You push me down and the rest will rise but first I'm singing a battle cry

  26. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I dunno. It's never just one thing that causes people to make a decision like that. Seeing that people that they, for some bizarre reason, look up to or regard as 'sensible' saying Trump's a piece of crap can't hurt.
    Agree; hence I'm mostly neutral about their ads, and positive about their secondary aim of taking down GOP congressmen. But I'm also scornful of how they and their entourage of disgraced Republican pundits go around slapping each other on the back and bro-ing out like they've been redeemed—rather than being permanently shit-stained by the work they did to saddle the US with Trumpism I also don't believe there are many current fence-sitting Republican voters who look up to people involved with The Lincoln Project as being sensible conservatives; I'm more inclined to believe they've been excommunicated for heresy.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  27. #267
    Yeah, that's about where I'm at.

    Can't decide if the post-Trump GOP will be pretending everything bad about the GOP began, and ended, with Trump when the party is functionally identical, or just have a new Trump who is even worse and now all the Trumpists are 'sensible moderates' and the other moderates will busy trying to redeem Trump in the way they're trying to with Bush.
    Sticks and stones take a toll on me but they aren't your strongest weaponry
    You can take your shots but you'd best prepare, I can see smoke rising in the air
    Every move has a counteract, to turn the tides with a planned attack
    You push me down and the rest will rise but first I'm singing a battle cry

  28. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Yeah, that's about where I'm at.

    Can't decide if the post-Trump GOP will be pretending everything bad about the GOP began, and ended, with Trump when the party is functionally identical, or just have a new Trump who is even worse and now all the Trumpists are 'sensible moderates' and the other moderates will busy trying to redeem Trump in the way they're trying to with Bush.
    The GOP is no more a monolithic party than Labour or the Tories are. Most of these pundits were more involved with John McCain style GOP than Bush.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #269
    Who was McCain's VP pick again? And who was McCain's advisor when that particular decision was made?

    Pandering to the religious right and stoking waspy cultural resentment is hardly limited to Bush and Trump. The GOP has been doing it for decades.
    Sticks and stones take a toll on me but they aren't your strongest weaponry
    You can take your shots but you'd best prepare, I can see smoke rising in the air
    Every move has a counteract, to turn the tides with a planned attack
    You push me down and the rest will rise but first I'm singing a battle cry

  30. #270
    Her crazy became a lot more public after she was picked. She didn't seem that crazy originally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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