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Thread: 2020 US Presidential election

  1. #61
    At some point during this presidency I went digging into it, and the legal experts I had found were saying that even though the pardon can be issued, if the person hasn't been charged then there are no double-jeopardy protections in place. Further, there was a supreme court case that stated that acceptance of a pardon is an admission of guilt, and suggestions that it could be used as evidence in a hypothetical trial. The conclusion was that even though crimes without charges have been pardoned before, that only works if prosecutors let it, not because it necessarily has to.

    I'm not a legal expert though, and I don't know if that's the standard opinion, so I could be off.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    At some point during this presidency I went digging into it, and the legal experts I had found were saying that even though the pardon can be issued, if the person hasn't been charged then there are no double-jeopardy protections in place. Further, there was a supreme court case that stated that acceptance of a pardon is an admission of guilt, and suggestions that it could be used as evidence in a hypothetical trial. The conclusion was that even though crimes without charges have been pardoned before, that only works if prosecutors let it, not because it necessarily has to.

    I'm not a legal expert though, and I don't know if that's the standard opinion, so I could be off.
    Not sure about that argument, but the fact remains these pardons have been issued in the past and none of the pardoned people have ever been charged. I'd take DOJ guidance on this subject.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Not sure about that argument, but the fact remains these pardons have been issued in the past and none of the pardoned people have ever been charged. I'd take DOJ guidance on this subject.
    From what I remember, the basis for the argument came from the Nixon pardon, and the Carter administration getting pressure to take Nixon to court because the pardon didn't carry any force. Pardons without charges are very rare, and I had understood that's because nobody wants to deal with exactly this - that the pardon would carry all the legal force of a polite request, so it relies on continued DoJ cooperation.

    I'm also vaguely remembering something about a supreme court case that said overly-broad pardons are invalid, but that may have been in regards to pardoning future crimes.

    Anyways, I'm out of my wheelhouse, and this isn't really important anyways. Can we just call this an open question?

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I'm right.

    In the UK if a PM loses the election they're gone, typically within hours of the counting.

    In the USA a President who loses the election remains in office for a couple of months until inauguration day for the next President. Trump won't just "step down" in November if he loses, but nor would any other President.
    Why get so bent with semantics? You know what is meant by 'step down.' Leave office. Acknowledge defeat. Whatever. Don't you feel a waste of energy to argue things like this? It's like policing spelling in texts or IM. What's the point? Sometimes I find you very reasonable. Other times, you seem so loony.
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  5. #65
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Why get so bent with semantics? You know what is meant by 'step down.' Leave office. Acknowledge defeat. Whatever. Don't you feel a waste of energy to argue things like this? It's like policing spelling in texts or IM. What's the point? Sometimes I find you very reasonable. Other times, you seem so loony.
    As someone that swims in the IT world...I prefer some accuracy in conversation.
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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    This is a good illustration of why 90% of you analyses are wrong. You think you know what people are saying while plugging your ears chanting "nah nah nah nah nah".
    How am I wrong? And I know what you said, even if you meant something else.

    The POTUS doesn't "step down" if they lose the election, they stay in place until inauguration day. If there were to be SCOTUS cases related to the election (like in Bush v Gore) they would all be resolved before inauguration day and wouldn't postpone inauguration day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Why get so bent with semantics? You know what is meant by 'step down.' Leave office. Acknowledge defeat. Whatever. Don't you feel a waste of energy to argue things like this? It's like policing spelling in texts or IM. What's the point? Sometimes I find you very reasonable. Other times, you seem so loony.
    Because the semantics matter.

    If Trump loses then a new President will be inaugurated come inauguration day, to suggest that Trump can say otherwise is absurd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #68
    It was clear from context that Being was expressing concern that Trump wouldn't concede defeat and agree to leave office if the vote were to go against him. He's also trivially right; he didn't specify November—or any specific date—and Inauguration Day is after the election.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    How am I wrong? And I know what you said, even if you meant something else.
    Do you even understand that 'analyses' is plural for 'analysis'? Do you really want me to go over every analysis you have ever made and explain to you the wrongness of 90% of them? You can just bugger right off you can. I will tell something they all have in common, you think you know what they said.
    .

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It was clear from context that Being was expressing concern that Trump wouldn't concede defeat and agree to leave office if the vote were to go against him. He's also trivially right; he didn't specify November—or any specific date—and Inauguration Day is after the election.
    Indeed and that was my point in reply. Trump doesn't need to concede defeat. The Constitution is pretty clear and Trump will remain in office until inauguration day when his term expires. Then the newly elected President will take office. Whatever Trump thinks about it, whether he concedes or not is moot.

    What garbage he gets up to as a lame duck is probably a more legitimate concern.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #71
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    Did you forget 2000 elections? Do you have full trust in the self cleansing qualities of the US political system after 20 more years of toxic and divisive political life?
    Trump: Lock him up.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Indeed and that was my point in reply. Trump doesn't need to concede defeat. The Constitution is pretty clear and Trump will remain in office until inauguration day when his term expires. Then the newly elected President will take office. Whatever Trump thinks about it, whether he concedes or not is moot.

    What garbage he gets up to as a lame duck is probably a more legitimate concern.
    He's no longer president if the Electoral College and Supreme Court say so. That's not a foregone conclusion.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #73
    Mr. Mushroom Cloud endorses a Democrat for prez...

    Colin Powell for Biden

    I wonder if Miss Mushroom Cloud will join his bandwagon this time?
    .

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post

    ...whether he concedes or not is moot.
    Think Maduro...

    (some already consider the US to be a Banana Republic)
    .

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    He's no longer president if the Electoral College and Supreme Court say so. That's not a foregone conclusion.
    Indeed, Trump as POTUS has no role to play in the Electoral College.

    Hazir, the election results showed Bush won in 2000, even if others didn't like that or agree due to the hanging chads. That's not the same as suggesting that a losing candidate can just stay in office.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #76
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Indeed, Trump as POTUS has no role to play in the Electoral College.

    Hazir, the election results showed Bush won in 2000, even if others didn't like that or agree due to the hanging chads. That's not the same as suggesting that a losing candidate can just stay in office.
    IIRC the actual results showed Bush lost, but they paused the recount to wait for the court's decision, and then decided not to recount because there wasn't enough time because they paused the counting in the first place, so it was a bit more complex.

    And Trump can put pressure on the electoral college and appoints the supreme court. I'm not sure i trust the right outcome from there if he'd refuse to accept the results. Let's hope it won't come to that though (and let's hope he actually loses, because if he wins the entire discussion is moot anyway).
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    IIRC the actual results showed Bush lost, but they paused the recount to wait for the court's decision, and then decided not to recount because there wasn't enough time because they paused the counting in the first place, so it was a bit more complex.

    And Trump can put pressure on the electoral college and appoints the supreme court. I'm not sure i trust the right outcome from there if he'd refuse to accept the results. Let's hope it won't come to that though (and let's hope he actually loses, because if he wins the entire discussion is moot anyway).
    He can also persuade GOP governors to refuse to certify pro-Biden results.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #78
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    He can also persuade GOP governors to refuse to certify pro-Biden results.
    Or make it disproportionately hard for Democrats to vote. Of course that one is purely hypothetical..
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Or make it disproportionately hard for Democrats to vote. Of course that one is purely hypothetical..
    Voting is handled by the states. He'd have to convince GOP governors to do that for him. And possibly get the Supreme Court to sign off on it.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Indeed, Trump as POTUS has no role to play in the Electoral College.

    Hazir, the election results showed Bush won in 2000, even if others didn't like that or agree due to the hanging chads. That's not the same as suggesting that a losing candidate can just stay in office.
    Whether Bush won or not is not what I want to debate. I was pointing out that to inaugurate Biden he needs to be declared the winner. Lacking all reason Trump can frustrate that declaration to the point that it does not come about.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  21. #81
    No he can't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #82
    Don't be too sure about what Trump can't do, RB. He's already *tried* de-legitimize voting by mail with false claims about voter fraud.

  23. #83
    This is a silly semantic argument. There's plenty Trump can do to stay in power despite losing. Yes, he'd need others to go along with it. It's not clear how willing they'd be to play along.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #84
    I think it's pretty clear the GOP is a bunch of spineless tag-alongs who care more about political power than principles.

  25. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Because the semantics matter.

    If Trump loses then a new President will be inaugurated come inauguration day, to suggest that Trump can say otherwise is absurd.
    I wish you were right. I SO wish you were right. But he will claim fraud and that he actually won and so HE should be inaugurated. He'll ask the supreme court or the senate or the Justice Department to investigate WHILE PLANNING HIS OWN INAUGURATION. Semantics have nothing to do with it and don't matter. He won't leave office willingly. He won't concede defeat. We won't step down. He won't let himself be removed. Whateverthefuck you want to call it. It's going to happen.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
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  26. #86
    MAGA! USA #1!

    We are so screwed.

  27. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    MAGA! USA #1!

    We are so screwed.
    You can console yourself with some goodies from The Official Trump Store. I left a link above.
    .

  28. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #89
    The mental capacity of a 5 year old.

    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  30. #90
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    The mental capacity of a 5 year old.

    Well, it is their job to apply the law, so it can't be a surprise they don't like him
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

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