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Thread: Big Brother Fucking up Efficiency Again

  1. #1

    Default Big Brother Fucking up Efficiency Again

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/23/us/ny...ban/index.html

    "New York (CNN)New York is on track to ban cashless businesses after the city council voted to join San Francisco and Philadelphia in requiring brick-and-mortar stores to accept cash.

    Under the law, food and retail establishments would have to accept American bills and coins or face a fine. Mayor Bill De Blasio is expected to sign the bill, his office told CNN.
    "When you open a dollar bill, it reads 'This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private,'" said Councilman Ritchie Torres, the sponsor of the bill. "Cash ought to command universal acceptance.""

    If it commanded universal acceptance you wouldn't need your stupid law you dumb ass. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to go cashless. Especially considering how New York wants to let thieves go w/o bail.

  2. #2
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    Invoking Big Brother is more than a little bit dumb here.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  3. #3
    Not Big Brother but it is bloody stupid and ironically the direct opposite of what many governments are trying to achieve (for what could be better called Big Brother reasons).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  4. #4
    There are people in society who have limited or no access to banking services necessary for a cashless life, and the city's govt has to consider their rights as well. It's not that weird.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  5. #5
    I'm sorry but it is. So long as a business is (A) non-essential and (B) makes clear they are cashless then that should be their right. Cash is a bane for many a small business, it is the single biggest risk of fraud and theft both from inside and outside. However refusing cash will also put off many customers so it will not be the first choice of many businesses anyway.

    Government should absolutely be able to mandate the acceptance of cash for its own enterprises and to mandate it for large or essential businesses (eg supermarkets etc). However the solution the government should be looking at in 2020, when a growing share of trade is done online that will not be compelled to accept cash, is not backwardsly compelling the acceptance of cash but looking forward and finding a way to guarantee access to banking services for all its citizens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Cash is a bane for many a small business, it is the single biggest risk of fraud and theft both from inside and outside.
    Do we have research that shows fraud from cash is higher than plastic with it's chargebacks, theft, and hacks?
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Do we have research that shows fraud from cash is higher than plastic with it's chargebacks, theft, and hacks?
    Yes. Both for businesses and the taxman.

    For consumers I'm not sure.

    A hack and an armed robbery are two very different beasts too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #8
    You probably mean something other than the word "fraud", but yeah handling cash increases security costs and requires physical access to your bank and regular (usually at least daily) visits to a branch. This law could easily be construed as gatekeeping to reduce local competition and raise the barrier to entry.

  9. #9
    Cashier takes payment, gives change, doesn't ring it into the till (or rings through a lower amount) and pockets the cash. Theft and fraud there. With both the business and the taxman the victim.

    Business owner takes payment, puts cash in the till but doesn't ring it through (or rings through a lower amount). Defrauds the taxman of sales and other taxes.

    Fraud is a lot harder to commit when the number is electronically matching.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #10
    And you think that happens more often, or to a greater financial extent, than people using stolen numbers to make purchases?

    I'm honestly curious if there is research comparing the lose of cash vs plastic. It's so bad with plastic that Walmart sued Visa due to their financial loses because of how chip cards are processed with credit + signature over debit + pin.

    Businesses have largely solved (or at least negated) the issue of employee theft in your description via software methods at the till.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 01-24-2020 at 07:44 PM.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Cashier takes payment, gives change, doesn't ring it into the till (or rings through a lower amount) and pockets the cash. Theft and fraud there. With both the business and the taxman the victim.

    Business owner takes payment, puts cash in the till but doesn't ring it through (or rings through a lower amount). Defrauds the taxman of sales and other taxes.

    Fraud is a lot harder to commit when the number is electronically matching.
    The first one is just theft, but I do see what you mean. It'd make sense that cash transactions result in more tax fraud, but I'm a bit skeptical that it leads to more fraud overall. It's beside the point though, because it creates an entire class of problems and expenses that these businesses didn't have to deal with before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Businesses have largely solved (or at least negated) the issue of employee theft in your description via software methods at the till.
    They've mitigated it; you can't ever totally negate it. It also doesn't matter here though, because this law only affects small businesses. The ones that have access to the best POS software aren't being impacted, only the ones who are small enough that the extra costs of supporting cash transactions is a net loss.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    And you think that happens more often, or to a greater financial extent, than people using stolen numbers to make purchases?

    I'm honestly curious if there is research comparing the lose of cash vs plastic. It's so bad with plastic that Walmart sued Visa due to their financial loses because of how chip cards are processed with credit + signature over debit + pin.

    Businesses have largely solved (or at least negated) the issue of employee theft in your description via software methods at the till.
    Yes I do think that, both from my own experiences and the quotes from the companies concerned explaining why they made their decisions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #13
    Sorry, but with your history of FYGM Im gonna have to wait for actual studies before going farther with the idea that cash leads to more fraud.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Sorry, but with your history of FYGM Im gonna have to wait for actual studies before going farther with the idea that cash leads to more fraud.
    It really depends on what you mean by fraud. Banking fraud/scams happens *all the time* but often doesn't involve the merchant being out money. Example some old dude is told he won money and gets a deposit in his account but they gave him too much so he needs to send part of it back. Simple scam but one that doesn't involve a merchant.

    However you are missing something absolutely key. Each merchant's scenario is very different. Some may very well have more losses in debit card/CC disputes/fraud than in cash transactions. *Those merchants will not be going cashless.*

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    There are people in society who have limited or no access to banking services necessary for a cashless life, and the city's govt has to consider their rights as well. It's not that weird.
    It is absolutely weird. It is an unnecessary intrusion on innovation and commerce. Businesses have long held the right to refuse currency over certain amounts. This is not really any different.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Sorry, but with your history of FYGM Im gonna have to wait for actual studies before going farther with the idea that cash leads to more fraud.
    Wouldn't the business owner be in a unique position to know what type of problems they are facing, if they need to be solved, and the best way to address their specific issues? Not sure why it would be important to have data from a study if it doesn't apply to your industry, geographic region, or clientele.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Wouldn't the business owner be in a unique position to know what type of problems they are facing, if they need to be solved, and the best way to address their specific issues? Not sure why it would be important to have data from a study if it doesn't apply to your industry, geographic region, or clientele.
    Possibly in a position, but not necessarily qualified or able to address them in the best way possible. Didn't Rand buy his business from a guy couldn't or wouldn't figure out how to keep it profitable? And remember that Rand made the sweeping statement that "Cash is a bane for many a small business, it is the single biggest risk of fraud and theft both from inside and outside." that I'm trying to get him to flesh out. I mean if you're going to make a claim that general I expect there to be proof of some sort.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 01-25-2020 at 03:09 AM.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  18. #18
    Nobody's disputing the fact that handling cash comes with its own challenges, or that innovation is important. The reality is, however, that transitioning to a cashless society has brought other, more concerning challenges. 6% of US households are unbanked; 1 in 4 households are either unbanked or underbanked. A disproportionate share of these households are found among economically weak minority groups, who have a limited ability to ensure that their needs are met purely through market mechanisms, ie. without leveraging political power to safeguard their rights and freedoms. These people have a right to exist and function within society. If you want a cashless society, solve their problems first; having access to banking services is not a prerequisite for being a member of society. This is similar to enabling free and easy access to photo ID if you want more stringent voter ID laws.

    The law makes some allowances for businesses that accept prepaid debit cards that can be topped up with cash at machines nearby, which is a good initial compromise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    It is absolutely weird. It is an unnecessary intrusion on innovation and commerce. Businesses have long held the right to refuse currency over certain amounts. This is not really any different.
    I understand how you might have difficulties understanding the difference between 0 and 100, but your inability to understand anything that isn't black and white is a deficiency - not a source of insight.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  19. #19
    There are alternative solutions that don't place the entire burden of solving the problem on small businesses that often have the same problem.

  20. #20
    Then those solutions will no doubt manifest and be implemented soon, swiftly making this law redundant.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  21. #21
    Then why fuck over the small low-volume local businesses along the way?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Then why fuck over the small low-volume local businesses along the way?
    To prevent 6-25% of households from being fucked over even more, along the way.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  23. #23
    But this law isn't doing that. It's not doing anything to solve the problem. It's just dumping the problem on small businesses with the same problem instead, but in a way that lets the politicians take credit for any solutions they come up with later. Or maybe they'll just be crushed under the additional burden and die, but who cares, right? It's lazy and irresponsible and makes it clear that the politicians involved are more interested in scoring points for their team than solving anything.

  24. #24
    Honestly I don't think this is true but it often feels that liberals in cities do everything they can to enable crime.

    https://www.democratandchronicle.com...es/2803142001/

    Ending Cash Bail for "non-violent" crimes like theft.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/23/us/ny...ban/index.html

    Not allowing cashless operations. (Starting article)

    https://reason.com/2017/12/15/philly...lletproof-gla/

    An attempt to ban bullet proof glass.



    Why the hell would any small business owner ever vote for a Democrat in these cities? Its like they are doing everything possible to enable criminal behavior.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    To prevent 6-25% of households from being fucked over even more, along the way.
    If politicians want to end underbanking by 6-25% of households then they have the power to do that, small businesses being targetted don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    But this law isn't doing that. It's not doing anything to solve the problem. It's just dumping the problem on small businesses with the same problem instead, but in a way that lets the politicians take credit for any solutions they come up with later. Or maybe they'll just be crushed under the additional burden and die, but who cares, right? It's lazy and irresponsible and makes it clear that the politicians involved are more interested in scoring points for their team than solving anything.
    Exactly.

    That said, I am a bit uncomfortable with the idea of business not taking a certain type of legal tender. And I don't mind keeping portions of the economy cash-based, because it's not hard to imagine a cash-strapped government using the easy reporting of digital payment systems to "innovate" new tax schemes.

    But this law is a great example of rogue populism at work. I intend to conscientiously object by using a cashback card every opportunity I get.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Exactly.

    That said, I am a bit uncomfortable with the idea of business not taking a certain type of legal tender.
    This is where I run into problems with the idea of a cashless brick & mortar. The whole point of cash is for a government create and mandate a comprehensive medium of exchange within its sovereign boundaries to put a stop to these kinds of barrier. The motivation may be different but I fail to see the difference in effect between this and refusing to accept, say, paper scrip rather than hard currency. Or refusing to accept fiat currency at all rather than a more tangible material of exchange.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  28. #28
    Something is clearly broken here. No business says "Man, I wish I could have fewer sales and also pay processing fees on every sale I do get." Brick & mortar businesses go cashless for the same reason their consumers are going cash-only: inadequate access to financial services. I don't have the data to say exactly why their access is insufficient (could be lack of physical banks feasibly close enough to use, or the threat of crime creating artificial barriers, or other things). In a normal, healthy environment, cash is more valuable than other forms of payment. Cashless shops are just a symptom of a deeper problem. Whatever the barriers are here, any solution should be targeting those, not the people being blocked by them.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    This is where I run into problems with the idea of a cashless brick & mortar. The whole point of cash is for a government create and mandate a comprehensive medium of exchange within its sovereign boundaries to put a stop to these kinds of barrier. The motivation may be different but I fail to see the difference in effect between this and refusing to accept, say, paper scrip rather than hard currency. Or refusing to accept fiat currency at all rather than a more tangible material of exchange.
    If a company wishes to refuse to accept fiat currency that should be their choice. Currency is there to make things convenient and it would be rare for a company to desire to refuse it, but if they want to then so be it. Don't like it, don't shop there.

    If a company desires to only accept Disney Dollars then that'd be their choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Something is clearly broken here. No business says "Man, I wish I could have fewer sales and also pay processing fees on every sale I do get." Brick & mortar businesses go cashless for the same reason their consumers are going cash-only: inadequate access to financial services. I don't have the data to say exactly why their access is insufficient (could be lack of physical banks feasibly close enough to use, or the threat of crime creating artificial barriers, or other things). In a normal, healthy environment, cash is more valuable than other forms of payment. Cashless shops are just a symptom of a deeper problem. Whatever the barriers are here, any solution should be targeting those, not the people being blocked by them.
    Indeed. Politicians ought to be able to regulate to guarantee access to at least minimal banking services. Not telling small businesses how to run their business should be a better and saner solution.

    Access to credit is another matter. Nobody should have a right to credit, but putting money into an account then spending it should not be a problem for anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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