Like it did in Canada and Scotland?
If they lose democratically then they lost fair and square.
A) Canada and the UK are not your typical country with a secessionism problem.
B) Why the obsession with having masses make irreversible decisions? The benefits of democracy involve the ability of the public to replace ineffective rulers. No one seriously believes the public is well-informed or that it holds strong and consistent views. Everyone knows you can get vastly different answers to the same general question depending on how you phrase that question and depending on when that question is asked. Frankly, I'm surprised Fuzzy is such a huge fan of self-determination by referendum considering how frequently he himself denounced the referenda system in California.
Hope is the denial of reality
No, they're typical democracies with a respect for people. Unlike Spain.
The benefits of democracy involve letting the people decide. If a decision is irreversible it absolutely should belong to the people. You're wrong that the public is not well-informed, an individual member of the public is not but the public as a whole are more well-informed than any individuals, it is known as the wisdom of crowds. Deciding what your nation is, is along the same lines as deciding who your rulers are. It is not an individual policy.B) Why the obsession with having masses make irreversible decisions? The benefits of democracy involve the ability of the public to replace ineffective rulers. No one seriously believes the public is well-informed or that it holds strong and consistent views. Everyone knows you can get vastly different answers to the same general question depending on how you phrase that question and depending on when that question is asked. Frankly, I'm surprised Fuzzy is such a huge fan of self-determination by referendum considering how frequently he himself denounced the referenda system in California.
The difference between major decisions like what country you have and California's system is that California drills down into individual policies. That lets people vote on a specific policy while ignoring the other side of the equation. General elections and major referenda like this don't allow that.
Oh wow. The wisdom of the crowds.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
You do realize that the wisdom of the crowds is frequently not particularly wise and that democracy and the wisdom of crowds are not the same?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Rand's version of democracy is precisely the kind parliamentary democracy and checks & balances were created to avoid. Again, his loathing of liberal democracy isn't very surprising considering how much his tribe benefited from ditching it.
Hope is the denial of reality
You do realise that individuals aren't always wise either? You do realise that the scientific evidence is that crowds are wiser than individuals.
Democracy is not the same thing no, democracy is letting the people decide and the people make the best choices because they are wise.
I love liberal democracy. It is you that wants illiberal authoritarianism were the draconian state is sending the Police into printers and newspapers to intimidate them and stop the public having a say. Yeah so liberal
No, evidence indicates that this is true of some things in some situations and untrue of other things in other situations. It depends on the type of question, the type of available information, the individuals being compared, the group being compared etc.
No, that's nonsense. You're confusing the view that democracy is the best available way to make these decisions with the assumption that the decisions thus made are guaranteed to be "best" because they are "wise". Not so. Democracy is also the best way to let people make poor and unwise decisions for their society.Democracy is not the same thing no, democracy is letting the people decide and the people make the best choices because they are wise.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
It is true the vast majority of the time. Diverse groups trump experts as a rule of thumb.
I never said they are guaranteed. It is the best method of making decisions though.No, that's nonsense. You're confusing the view that democracy is the best available way to make these decisions with the assumption that the decisions thus made are guaranteed to be "best" because they are "wise". Not so. Democracy is also the best way to let people make poor and unwise decisions for their society.
I agree 100% that democracy is the best way to let people make poor and unwise decisions. If a poor or unwise decision is going to be made then it absolutely should be made by the public. Why should a poor or unwise decision be foisted on the public who haven't had a say?
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
That being said, it may prove to be a counter-productive way to enforce the law.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
They're not using unnecessary force. They're following the orders of the court. Ignoring the court for the sake of pragmatism risks sparking similar movements in other parts of Spain.
Hope is the denial of reality
I just think this may end up being one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
No matey, what's funny is that you lot think we would or should care.
Congratulations America
With one day left to go we have oppression reminiscent of Franco occurring across Spain. Well done to the Catalans brave enough to stand up to such oppression, nobody has a right to deny the people their voice.
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If this poll is right then an absolute majority could vote for independence. http://www.thenational.scot/news/155..._Catalan_poll/
Hardly a surprise, I had no strong view either way a few weeks ago but am so disgusted at the oppression occurring on our doorstep that I now hope it gets stood up against. Spain really isn't trying to 'win friends and influence people' here but repression is no way to treat what you supposedly want to be your people.
In the 21st century the people not the state are the ones who get to decide. Anyone who tries to subjugate the people is a dictator that should be opposed.
For once I agree with Julian Assange, this is impressive and the Spanish state has no ability let alone right to stop the people from turning out.
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Please provide scientific evidence for that ridiculous claim because evidence disagrees with you. Evidence is that crowds are wiser than any individual let alone the stupidest member.
People are not perfect even if they are wise but they're still wiser than trusting without checks any individual who could just as easily be a Goebbels, Mussolini or Trump.
There's a reason why the likes of Goebbels were not keen on keeping free and fair democracy.
If you find yourself in agreement with Assange, that's a good reason to rethink your position.
Hope is the denial of reality
If you find yourself in agreement with General Franco, that's a good reason to rethink yours.
Utter, utter morons. After today I think Catalonia will go independent. Dictatorships fall. Spain can't stomp on people forever not and try and pretend to be a free nation and their actions today have taken two guns and shot themselves directly in both feet, support for independence will surge now. Or do you think that Police grabbing and dragging old people who want to vote is a fantastic idea?
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Playing right into the hands of the separatists. Sad.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."