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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #4261
    Quote Originally Posted by Unheard Of View Post
    If
    Yes, if.

    Does anyone disagree that this Parliament is patently incapable of reaching a decision? Even when they took control with the indicative votes they rejected every option.
    You've lost 22 MPs in one day, without even needing to trouble the voters. Let's see what happens next time a PM rolls the dice.

    Who knows where this chart will go in the next few weeks?

    EDIT: For the sake of clarity, I don't expect it to go anywhere good. This country is fucked.
    Fine by me for them to go. Let more join them if need be.

    That chart is reassuring. I'm very pleased with that chart and I hope the trend continues. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Conservatives touch 40% soon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #4262
    The problem Boris has in the election is that Farrage is going to split the Brexiter vote unless Boris comes out explicitly for a hard Brexit, which will alienate remainer Tories or conditional Leavers. The other problem he has is that he's Boris Johnson and he has a pronounced tendency to chat a load of incoherant shit (but also on his good days he's charismatic and does well with voters).

    The problem Corbyn has is his voter base is split between remain and leave, and also he'll need to have a position at least somewhat palatable to the Lib Dems because he a) doesn't want to lose Remainers to them and b) might need them to form a government.

    I think there's everything to play for in the election. I wouldn't even start to try and predict what will happen.
    I'll lend you my essence for your rusted throne, and you could bring back the light to the last home of civilisation without which I'm gone
    So take this godsoul to bring forth a new dawn, I'll forgive the death you've earned, the cities you've burned, the lessons we've learned
    For all that remains, just sacrifice me. I'll hide away in a castle on the sea.

  3. #4263
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Does anyone disagree that this Parliament is patently incapable of reaching a decision? Even when they took control with the indicative votes they rejected every option.
    When asked a series of yes/no questions this parliament is incapable of reaching a decision. The only way to get a clear answer is a ranked preference vote (deal, no deal, withdraw article 50). I don't know if it's possible for parliament to use this voting structure. It seems unlikely that another election will resolve the fundamental problem, but obviously it is theoretically possible that the UK will elect enough MPs that support a single viable option.
    Some people are too dense to bother with

  4. #4264
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    The problem Boris has in the election is that Farrage is going to split the Brexiter vote unless Boris comes out explicitly for a hard Brexit, which will alienate remainer Tories or conditional Leavers. The other problem he has is that he's Boris Johnson and he has a pronounced tendency to chat a load of incoherant shit (but also on his good days he's charismatic and does well with voters).

    The problem Corbyn has is his voter base is split between remain and leave, and also he'll need to have a position at least somewhat palatable to the Lib Dems because he a) doesn't want to lose Remainers to them and b) might need them to form a government.

    I think there's everything to play for in the election. I wouldn't even start to try and predict what will happen.
    I think Farage's fox is well and truly shot twice over. Boris unlike May was a leaver and was the face of Vote Leave and the famous bus etc. Secondly by expelling the likes of Ken Clarke, Grieve, Soames etc he has been unequivocally clear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #4265
    Quote Originally Posted by Unheard Of View Post
    When asked a series of yes/no questions this parliament is incapable of reaching a decision. The only way to get a clear answer is a ranked preference vote (deal, no deal, withdraw article 50). I don't know if it's possible for parliament to use this voting structure. It seems unlikely that another election will resolve the fundamental problem, but obviously it is theoretically possible that the UK will elect enough MPs that support a single viable option.
    The UK is a parliamentary (which is to say a representative) democracy. As such, Parliament is a relatively small body. Small enough that it does not (or should not) NEED to do something like ranked preference voting to make these kinds of decisions, it just needs the members to talk and negotiate amongst themselves. The fact that they can't reach a decision with a series of yes/no decisions despite that capability tells me that any kind of ranked preference vote isn't going to be any better as a means of making policy than defaulting to a time-limit execution even if you can generate a majority position from it with sufficient statistical massaging. It certainly wouldn't have any more of a mandate, since the voting public which elected the current crop of deadlocked MPs did not make their choices with a similar method or intent
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  6. #4266
    So Boris says he doesn't want an election but clearly does.
    Corbyn won't stop saying he wants an election, but is voting against one.
    Court has ruled proroguation is legal.

    In an ironic twist the interesting development tonight is the Lords could kill the Benn bill. The Lords have no tradition of curtailing debates so Labour and the Lib Dems were worried the Tories could filibuster the bill and have put down a motion to curtail the debate. The Tories have put down 86 amendments that each need 2 hours of debate and a vote. The Lords is going to run 24/7 it looks like but if the Tories filibuster until Monday then Parliament can be prorogued and there'd be no bill, no extension and no election.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #4267
    Now some Labour MPs are after another vote on May's deal, because why not.
    I'll lend you my essence for your rusted throne, and you could bring back the light to the last home of civilisation without which I'm gone
    So take this godsoul to bring forth a new dawn, I'll forgive the death you've earned, the cities you've burned, the lessons we've learned
    For all that remains, just sacrifice me. I'll hide away in a castle on the sea.

  8. #4268
    I'll lend you my essence for your rusted throne, and you could bring back the light to the last home of civilisation without which I'm gone
    So take this godsoul to bring forth a new dawn, I'll forgive the death you've earned, the cities you've burned, the lessons we've learned
    For all that remains, just sacrifice me. I'll hide away in a castle on the sea.

  9. #4269
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    The UK is a parliamentary (which is to say a representative) democracy. As such, Parliament is a relatively small body. Small enough that it does not (or should not) NEED to do something like ranked preference voting to make these kinds of decisions, it just needs the members to talk and negotiate amongst themselves. The fact that they can't reach a decision with a series of yes/no decisions despite that capability tells me that any kind of ranked preference vote isn't going to be any better as a means of making policy than defaulting to a time-limit execution even if you can generate a majority position from it with sufficient statistical massaging. It certainly wouldn't have any more of a mandate, since the voting public which elected the current crop of deadlocked MPs did not make their choices with a similar method or intent
    The problem is that they are used to a situation of an elected despotism; under normal circumstances they have a majority government that can do what it bloody well wants to do without listening to anybody besides their own consiences. The system is not really democratic, because governments typically base their mandate on a plurality of the vote rather than an actual majority, and has no serious checks or balances.
    That works, sort of, in circumstances where the issue at hand doesn't lay bare the cracks in the foundations of the governing party, the way Brexit does. Brexit has made clear there is no actual majority in Parliament, not for the Government of the day, but also not for any of the alternatives. And then these people, who are profoundly unfit to hammer out compromises, are forced to do exactly that. From the looks of it they haven't even started a serious discussion about the Brexit that is acceptable to them so what can we expect from the outcome?

    Lacking a proposal from the UK that respects all our red lines (and I can assure you that these red lines are not going to fade away) the WA (which is horrible for them I will admit) is the only and best deal in town.

    The amusing thing is that no deal will just lead to the WA minus the things the Brits liked in it.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  10. #4270
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Bizarre skullduggery.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #4271
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Bizarre skullduggery.
    Shut up, this is brilliant writing. A top notch third act twist.
    I'll lend you my essence for your rusted throne, and you could bring back the light to the last home of civilisation without which I'm gone
    So take this godsoul to bring forth a new dawn, I'll forgive the death you've earned, the cities you've burned, the lessons we've learned
    For all that remains, just sacrifice me. I'll hide away in a castle on the sea.

  12. #4272
    What fresh cuntery is this?
    Some people are too dense to bother with

  13. #4273
    Quote Originally Posted by Unheard Of View Post
    What fresh cuntery is this?
    Not no deal but not immediately no brexit.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  14. #4274
    And Corbyn too chicken to have an election. Nevermind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #4275
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Not no deal but not immediately no brexit.
    I found the missing "no" tellers. Apparently Aimless is hoarding all the negative expression forms.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  16. #4276
    I'll lend you my essence for your rusted throne, and you could bring back the light to the last home of civilisation without which I'm gone
    So take this godsoul to bring forth a new dawn, I'll forgive the death you've earned, the cities you've burned, the lessons we've learned
    For all that remains, just sacrifice me. I'll hide away in a castle on the sea.

  17. #4277
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I found the missing "no" tellers. Apparently Aimless is hoarding all the negative expression forms.
    Nice try, but I'm not telling
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  18. #4278


    bro bro
    I'll lend you my essence for your rusted throne, and you could bring back the light to the last home of civilisation without which I'm gone
    So take this godsoul to bring forth a new dawn, I'll forgive the death you've earned, the cities you've burned, the lessons we've learned
    For all that remains, just sacrifice me. I'll hide away in a castle on the sea.

  19. #4279
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    They do. It’s not written down in a single document and it can only function if everybody involves is displaying some common decency. But with a habitual liar and opportunist in charge and Brexiteers not caring what they break on the way out like they are the bloody Bullingdon club it is made clear that it’s actually quite useless. It doesn’t hold power accountable, there are no checks or balances and no matter what batshit crazy thing they come up with they do. Brexit is breaking down quite a different union than the EU.
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    The UK is a parliamentary (which is to say a representative) democracy. As such, Parliament is a relatively small body. Small enough that it does not (or should not) NEED to do something like ranked preference voting to make these kinds of decisions, it just needs the members to talk and negotiate amongst themselves. The fact that they can't reach a decision with a series of yes/no decisions despite that capability tells me that any kind of ranked preference vote isn't going to be any better as a means of making policy than defaulting to a time-limit execution even if you can generate a majority position from it with sufficient statistical massaging. It certainly wouldn't have any more of a mandate, since the voting public which elected the current crop of deadlocked MPs did not make their choices with a similar method or intent
    Meanwhile, Rand appears to have a lot of confidence in UK's *political processes* -- even tho that seems to be falling apart.

    Governing by referendum (or ranked-preference) only sounds like a good idea after the political processes have already broken down. That's what makes Brexit and the Leavers so confusing: their biggest problems are internal, their process remains the same, and leaving the EU doesn't change that.

  20. #4280
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  21. #4281
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    November 2021 😬
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  22. #4282
    Revoke the 1972 Act.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #4283
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Revoke the 1972 Act.
    It's more likely that the speaker will stop the clock.

    Does the UK actually have a government any longer anyway? The buffoon hasn't won a single vote since he was launched by the blue wash brigade brexitards.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  24. #4284
    In any real sense? No it doesn't.

    Its pathetically ludicrous that we're not going to the polls, it completely upends our constitution. Unforeseen consequences from Nick Clegg's constitutional vandalism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #4285
    Accusing others of that of which you're guilty of doesn't work in kindergarten and it doesn't work now.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  26. #4286
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    It's amusing to see how the Buffoon isn't having any fun at all in his role as squatter at 10 Downing Street.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  27. #4287
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...yone-go-for-it

    It would also be very funny if what's detailed in the article actually came to pass...
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  28. #4288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...yone-go-for-it

    It would also be very funny if what's detailed in the article actually came to pass...
    Yeah, but it would have been so nice if they'd have realised this was the most sensible solution before they started MAD policies.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  29. #4289
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Okay, once more, this time with English subtitles:

    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  30. #4290
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    I seriously wonder why the Tories don't simply throw the DUP under the bus. Or the ERG for that matter. It would clear the ground for a new WA with the EU that takes the Great Britain out of the EU, leaves NI in the regulatory sphere of the EU. With the rest of the WA intact that gives us 2 years to negotiate the future relation without major disruptions. At the end of which Britain could either have a new (special) relationship with the EU or not at all, if they wish so. That way the tories would have delivered Brexit on the 31st, pull the rug from under the Brexit party, be rid of all the crazies for whom Brexit isn't ready untill the country has left orbit. AND it would make a majority in a post Brexit GE very possible.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

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