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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #3901
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I've never said how important we are. I don't see Brexit to be important, I seek it to be nimble and agile away from your sclerotic bloc.
    How do you think to get away from the 'sclerotic parts of the UK'?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  2. #3902
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Nimble. Agile.

    Those are not the words one would choose having seen the chaos on your side the last two years.

    Also, those are usually words by ultraliberal economists. Which usually ends in desaster.
    Gee an ultraliberal is using words used by ultraliberals. I wonder why that is?

    Socialism ends in disaster. Liberalism works.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #3903
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    Voters in the poorest parts of the UK are also voters. You may not like their priorities after Brexit, but I doubt they will be willing to go and have a ride on your Singaporean unicorn.

    Especially since everyone can see the unicorn you're peddling is actually a pig with a plastic cone glued on.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  4. #3904
    That's democracy for you. I will vote, they will vote and we will see where we end up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #3905
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    And *pop* goes your Singapore Brexit. You seriously don't want to deal with reality at all do you?

    Brexit is going to be absolutely horrible for you and your countrymen save for a few who are willing to speculate against their own country and who have enough money to cushion them from the suffering.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  6. #3906
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Your pants are too big.
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Bizzare expression. I'm not familiar with that one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    We use it when dealing with people who think they are more important than they really are.
    In the US we say that's acting "too big for your britches". But it's still the arrogance of self-importance.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I've never said how important we are. I don't see Brexit to be important, I seek it to be nimble and agile away from your sclerotic bloc.
    Brexit isn't important, and you think you can get special deals as a tiny independent nation? Sorry, but that's as delusional as UAW or UMWA workers thinking they can maintain the old status quo of auto and coal industrial powers, while the world shifts under their feet.

  7. #3907
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Liberalism works.
    Naw, unbridled economic liberalism (which is what you're advocating here fore) ends in just the same toxic hellstew as everything else. But you sure seem to be hellbent on running your achievements right into the shitter - your NHS is already bearing the brunt of it.

    Your farmers also won't be happy, increasing your dependance on food imports even more.
    When the stars threw down their spears
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    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  8. #3908
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    Here's thought for food: This whole thing was about "taking back control" and "sovereignty" and shit.

    Now Johnson is poised to make an end-run around parliament to unilaterally enact a Hard Brexit if he doesn't get his will.

    So, Rand, how is that compatible with taking back control?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  9. #3909
    Perfectly compatible.

    The point of Brexit is that we the voters take back control because the MPs we elect will set our laws. The control only begins once we leave, if MPs refuse to actually exit we haven't regained control.

    Furthermore proroguing Parliament (which happens annually and has been used for political purposes previously) doesn't change the law, it merely preserves the law as it is. So the only reason we will leave on 31 October if we do with Parliament prorogued will be because MPs previously voted to invoke Article 50 and MPs previously endorsed 31 October as the end date. If they weren't serious about it, they shouldn't have done that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #3910
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8949941.html

    Brexiters: It is vitally important that we respect democracy by delivering Brext.
    Also Brexiters: I'll suspend democratic institutions to force through my preferred outcome to Brexit, which has absolutely no democratic mandate and will probably cause direct harm the country
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Raab is a moron for suggesting that.
    Randblade one month ago when Raab says he might prorogue parliament.

    Randblade today, after suggestions that BoJo mght try exactly the same thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Perfectly compatible.

    The point of Brexit is that we the voters take back control because the MPs we elect will set our laws. The control only begins once we leave, if MPs refuse to actually exit we haven't regained control.

    Furthermore proroguing Parliament (which happens annually and has been used for political purposes previously) doesn't change the law, it merely preserves the law as it is. So the only reason we will leave on 31 October if we do with Parliament prorogued will be because MPs previously voted to invoke Article 50 and MPs previously endorsed 31 October as the end date. If they weren't serious about it, they shouldn't have done that.
    Randblade, why are you so unfairly biased against Dominic Raab?
    Sing in grief, a requiem, the curse of our millennium, these souls keep whispering from the river beds
    An end to all these violent means, alive in these red water dreams, their haunted burdens stirring in my head on streets still running red
    Most went in the flood, a few were martyred by the flames, yet those who unleashed the waters are still guilty all the same
    When the ignorance of puppets serves the masters larger game, they let it rain, they let it rain
    When I get the chance to rise I'll find the light in their cold eyes or lose myself and carry out revenge
    The righteous hunt has just begun, the dimming of the bleeding sun will let these waters run clear once again



  11. #3911
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    He's always been a Boris' bumboy.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  12. #3912
    Raab didn't explain it well. Now I've had time to reflect on it, I was premature on Raab.

    Reality is proroguing won't change a single law, it will only implement that which Parliament has voted for already. Plus proroguing has been used before, which I wasn't aware of when Raab suggested it, so my apologies.

    Reality is Parliament has voted for leaving, Parliament has endorsed the date of 31 October. If we leave without a deal then that will be due to votes held in Parliament. Parliament hasn't exactly covered itself in glory here, they've had three chances to pass a deal and rejected it every single time. Parliament has also had multiple options to come up with alternatives and rejected every single alternative. They've rejected the deal, no deal, revocation, a referendum. All rejected repeatedly.

    Parliament needs to be more serious than Vicky Pollard. If it can't be, then shutting it down for three weeks then re-opening after what it has already voted for has occured may not be the worst idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #3913
    If you restrict parliament's authority to change its mind in this manner, you'll have thrown parliamentary sovereignty down the shitter. Parliament is not for your lying govt to "discipline" through cynical abuse. You don't get to set aside parliament just because it doesn't play along with your delusional fantasies. We don't do that sort of creepy authoritarian thing in the west anymore.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  14. #3914
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    I think the British constitution is a bit more complicated than that.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  15. #3915
    The constitution may be as complex as you like, but it's become increasingly clear that the British govt and fanatic Brexiters hold constitutional principles in very low regard. What RB is endorsing is the view that a leader is justified in doing an end run around parliament in order to implement the will of the people, as that will is interpreted by its only legitimate representative (Glorious Leader Johnson).
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  16. #3916
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I think the British constitution is a bit more complicated than that.
    Indeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #3917
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    The constitution may be as complex as you like, but it's become increasingly clear that the British govt and fanatic Brexiters hold constitutional principles in very low regard. What RB is endorsing is the view that a leader is justified in doing an end run around parliament in order to implement the will of the people, as that will is interpreted by its only legitimate representative (Glorious Leader Johnson).
    No, I am endorsing that we cut this Gordian Knot by implementing what Parliament has actually already voted for. Had Parliament not voted for this already it wouldn't be an option.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #3918
    Nonsense. Parliament must have the right to undo or modify any decision it has made, on this and related matters.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  19. #3919
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Nonsense. Parliament must have the right to undo or modify any decision it has made, on this and related matters.
    Not just like that. This happens to be about Brexit which you don't like but it could also about something you really do like in which case you wouldn't be so certain about parliament being free to change its mind no matter what being desirable or even justifieable.

    RandBlade is right about the fact that Brexit was endorsed twice at least by the British electorate. No Brexit would be a bigger violation of the mandate parliament has than a no deal Brexit.

    What you effectively do is demanding that PMs vote ofollowing their personal convictions rather than what they promised their voters. The people who don't want a no deal brexit could have voted for the WA.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  20. #3920
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Not just like that.
    I'm not saying it should be done lightly. However, if parliament is prorogued in this tactical fashion, it cannot be done at all--and that would undermine parliament's standing.

    This happens to be about Brexit which you don't like but it could also about something you really do like in which case you wouldn't be so certain about parliament being free to change its mind no matter what being desirable or even justifieable.
    You're correct, I wouldn't, because that is a mischaracterization of my position. I am all for restrictions on parliaments changing their minds, for example when it comes to binding referendums, agreements with other countries, etc. Some restrictions are legal and many are simply political. But the UK takes pride in its parliament's absolute authority to change its mind on matters such as these.

    RandBlade is right about the fact that Brexit was endorsed twice at least by the British electorate. No Brexit would be a bigger violation of the mandate parliament has than a no deal Brexit.
    You're free to believe this, as many do, but it is quite clearly a debatable issue that not only Remainers but also responsible Leavers have doubts about. The British electorate has not given Parliament a clear mandate to bring about a NDB. The mandate given by the referendum, to bring about any Brexit at all, was not legally binding. The snap election did not give any mandate for NDB. Parliament itself has not given itself a mandate for NDB, although it has certainly increased the likelihood of an NDB on walkover.

    What you effectively do is demanding that PMs vote ofollowing their personal convictions rather than what they promised their voters.
    MPs are tasked with working in their constituents' best interests and they have been delegated the responsibility of determining what those interests are as well as what may be the best approach to furthering said interests. They are not tasked with thoughtlessly and automatically executing the poorly considered demands of fewer than half of their constituents. MPs must absolutely act in accordance with their own judgement, and voters are free to reward--or punish--the MPs that represent them, for that judgement, as are the parties they belong to (if any).

    The people who don't want a no deal brexit could have voted for the WA.
    Coulda shoulda woulda.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  21. #3921
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Nonsense. Parliament must have the right to undo or modify any decision it has made, on this and related matters.
    Absolutely and completely agreed 100%. You know me, no Parliament can bind its successor and any decision made can ultimately be undone.

    So once we've exited Parliament is entirely entitled to seek to rejoin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    The people who don't want a no deal brexit could have voted for the WA.
    Absolutely agreed. If we do no deal Brexit then they should look back at rejecting the WA and think 'what have I done?' They knew full well that a NDB was already set in law as the ultimate alternative.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #3922
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Not just like that. This happens to be about Brexit which you don't like but it could also about something you really do like in which case you wouldn't be so certain about parliament being free to change its mind no matter what being desirable or even justifieable.
    Aimless has, in fact, also objected to the idea that Parliament can change its mind in this thread over its extended duration, when Randblade has been gassing on about parliamentary supremacy.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  23. #3923
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Aimless has, in fact, also objected to the idea that Parliament can change its mind in this thread over its extended duration, when Randblade has been gassing on about parliamentary supremacy.
    I don't believe I've argued that the British parliament cannot legally change its mind about its own decisions, provided procedural & legal requirements have been met, certainly not over the extended duration of this thread. Now, it's possible that I may be misremembering my statements on this matter, but experience leads me to suspect it's more likely that you're misremembering something you've imagined me saying. Regardless, the British parliament can clearly change its mind about the things that are within its competency; my opinions about restrictions on that authority wrt international agreements are not in any way relevant to the issue of whether or not parliament can change internal laws.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  24. #3924
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Absolutely and completely agreed 100%. You know me, no Parliament can bind its successor and any decision made can ultimately be undone.

    So once we've exited Parliament is entirely entitled to seek to rejoin.
    I realize you think this is Very Clever, but it's really just a bit of dumbfuckery. The next parliament may indeed seek to overturn a decision made by the current parliament, but the current parliament may also effectively overturn a decision it has made itself. You don't have to wait for the next parliament.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  25. #3925
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    Every branch of government in a democracy under the rule of law is bound by formal and informal rules. I'm not claiming to be an expert on British constitutional law but I have little to no doubt that the supremacy of parliament is not as absolute as stated in the doctrine. Parliament acting as if it weren't bound by any rule, but the majority in its own chambers, would no doubt be considered a constitutional crisis.
    For Brexit not happening to have legitimacy you need more than playing the constitution to its breaking point.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  26. #3926
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I don't believe I've argued that the British parliament cannot legally change its mind about its own decisions, provided procedural & legal requirements have been met, certainly not over the extended duration of this thread. Now, it's possible that I may be misremembering my statements on this matter, but experience leads me to suspect it's more likely that you're misremembering something you've imagined me saying.
    I'm not misremembering. You pissed all over the idea of parliamentary supremacy as a principle with any meaning or importance when Rand talked about treaties, even when there was no suggestion that withdrawal or abrogation would fail to follow procedural and legal requirements. And here there is also no suggestion that proroguing won't follow procedural & legal requirements but suddenly parliamentary supremacy is vital and acts which treat it dismissively (even if legal) are a terrible thing to contemplate.

    Regardless, the British parliament can clearly change its mind about the things that are within its competency; my opinions about restrictions on that authority wrt international agreements are not in any way relevant to the issue of whether or not parliament can change internal laws.
    It's just that whether parliamentary supremacy is something which anyone should care about in the slightest changes with the wind (or specifically, with whether you like the specific move being discussed, as Hazir outlined)
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  27. #3927
    I encourage you to reread what I actually said so that you can determine whether or not I really said what you imagined I said, and whether or not what I said is relevant to the matter being discussed right now. On a similar note, I have not suggested that proroguing parliament would be illegal; I have only suggested that proroguing parliament in order to prevent parliament from making a decision the govt disapproves of should be questionable from the perspective of anyone who is concerned with safeguarding parliament's authority, and I find it especially disconcerting to see such tactics being suggested by populists enamored with a decidedly creepy "will-of-the-people" rhetoric.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  28. #3928
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Every branch of government in a democracy under the rule of law is bound by formal and informal rules. I'm not claiming to be an expert on British constitutional law but I have little to no doubt that the supremacy of parliament is not as absolute as stated in the doctrine. Parliament acting as if it weren't bound by any rule, but the majority in its own chambers, would no doubt be considered a constitutional crisis.
    For Brexit not happening to have legitimacy you need more than playing the constitution to its breaking point.
    I don't dispute any of this, but nor do I see what bearing it has on the issue of proroguing parliament in order to prevent a potentially unsettling outcome. I also note that Brexit has already not happened, and also that the UK has over the past three years had to endure a number of extremely disturbing political shenanigans without having come undone.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  29. #3929
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I realize you think this is Very Clever, but it's really just a bit of dumbfuckery. The next parliament may indeed seek to overturn a decision made by the current parliament, but the current parliament may also effectively overturn a decision it has made itself. You don't have to wait for the next parliament.
    Absolutely it can, I never said otherwise. It certainly can if it votes accordingly following its correct procedures. To do that would almost need an executive that would support that decision though, so Parliament needs to give Confidence to a PM who wants to take that path and not one that doesn't.

    That the executive controls Parliaments agenda and sets down proroguations etc is well established so Parliament needs to give Confidence to a PM they are happy to use those powers and can withdraw Confidence from any potential or existing PM that Parliament doesn't like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #3930
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    And yet there's no clear indication that the vast majority of the UK electorate do not want Brexit.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

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