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  1. #1

    Default Rational vs. rationalizing voters

    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...nce-of-voters/

    And perhaps there is no salvation:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...402375_pf.html

    The Ignorance of Voters

    By Jonah Lehrer

    What a sad day for American political discourse. It’s more than a little pathetic that the President of the United States had to release his own long form birth certificate just to prove what every serious person already knew. Once a rumor starts, it’s really hard to stop, especially when a quick Google search can rummage up evidence for nearly any belief.

    And yet, it’s not entirely fair to blame Trump, Drudge or the information age for our persistent idiocy. Rather, the fault is really our own: The human mind is simply terrible at politics. Although we think we make political decisions based upon the facts, the reality is much more sordid. We are affiliation machines, editing the world to confirm our partisan ideologies.

    Consider a recent study by the Public Policy Institute of California. They polled voters shortly after the most recent election, in December 2010. Quite rightly, the majority of Californians said they had little confidence in their fellow voters to make public-policy decisions at the ballot box. That, unfortunately, is where the wisdom ends. While most voters believed that other voters were uninformed, they expressed no such skepticism about their own knowledge.

    That was a mistake. It turned out that only 22 percent of voters could identify the largest category of state spending (public schools) when presented with a list of four options. In other words, they performed below random chance. Voters performed even worse when it came to state revenues, with many identifying car registration fees as the leading source of funding. (In reality, those fees account for 2 percent of state revenue.) As the Institute concluded, “Californians’ views about the budget are not based on an understanding of where the money comes from and where it goes.”

    Like most voters, I assume that such ignorance only applies to other citizens, those people who don’t read The New York Times on their iPad while sipping single-origin coffee. But my self-confidence is probably wrong. The Economist summarizes some new research by Kimberly Nalder, of Cal State Sacramento, who quizzed people about Prop 13, a voter initiative that applies a tax cap to all property, both residential and commercial:

    Ms Nalder found that the best-educated (those with more than a master’s degree) were most likely to answer incorrectly that Proposition 13 applies only to residential property. Those with the least education (high-school dropouts) were most likely to get it right. Similarly, those who were already of voting age when Proposition 13 passed were most likely to answer incorrectly and the youngest correctly. The same pattern held for income, with wealthier respondents being more likely to be misinformed. Perhaps most intriguingly, the largest group among homeowners (who directly benefit from Proposition 13) were misinformed, whereas the largest group of renters (who do not benefit) answered correctly.

    These results are puzzling and troubling. As Ms Nalder suggests, perception (as opposed to knowledge) of issues such as Proposition 13 appears to have more to do with “self-interest and a potential blindness to issues outside of one’s own experience” than with the content of the legislation. This would explain why those respondents who were “non-citizens” or “registered elsewhere” (probably recent arrivals) were more likely to give the correct answer than voters who are registered where they live.

    Why does more education lead to less accurate beliefs? The answer returns us to the difference between rational voters (what we think we are) and rationalizing voters (what we really are). It turns out that the human mind is a marvelous information filter, adept at blocking out those facts that contradict what we’d like to believe. Just look at this experiment, which was done in the late 1960’s, by the cognitive psychologists Timothy Brock and Joe Balloun. They played a group of people a tape-recorded message attacking Christianity. Half of the subjects were regular churchgoers while the other half were committed atheists. To make the experiment more interesting, Brock and Balloun added an annoying amount of static – a crackle of white noise – to the recording. However, they allowed listeners to reduce the static by pressing a button, so that the message suddenly became easier to understand. Their results were utterly predicable and rather depressing: the non-believers always tried to remove the static, while the religious subjects actually preferred the message that was harder to hear. Later experiments by Brock and Balloun demonstrated a similar effect with smokers listening to a speech on the link between smoking and cancer. We silence the cognitive dissonance through self-imposed ignorance.

    Unfortunately, the same process also applies to our political beliefs. It doesn’t matter if we’re holding forth on birth certificates or tax policy – we can’t help but discount and disregard facts that contract what we’d like to believe. The Princeton political scientist Larry Bartels analyzed survey data from the 1990’s to prove this point. During the first term of Bill Clinton’s presidency, the budget deficit declined by more than 90 percent. However, when Republican voters were asked in 1996 what happened to the deficit under Clinton, more than 55 percent said that it had increased. What’s interesting about this data is that so-called “high-information” voters – these are the Republicans who read the newspaper, watch cable news and can probably identify their representatives in Congress – weren’t better informed than “low-information” voters. According to Bartels, the reason knowing more about politics doesn’t erase partisan bias is that voters tend to only assimilate those facts that confirm what they already believe. If a piece of information doesn’t follow Republican talking points – and Clinton’s deficit reduction didn’t fit the “tax and spend liberal” stereotype – then the information is conveniently ignored. “Voters think that they’re thinking,” Bartels writes, “but what they’re really doing is inventing facts or ignoring facts so that they can rationalize decisions they’ve already made.”

    Long story short: I don’t expect the release of Obama’s birth certificate to end this ridiculous “debate.” In fact, it might even make things worse. We really are ridiculous creatures.
    What say you conservative politics-savvy folks?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  2. #2
    What does this have to do with conservatism or liberalism? Unless you're saying that liberalism is about giving the populace less control of their destiny.

  3. #3
    Combine this (Why does more education lead to less accurate beliefs?) with the maps of US voter preference and US education level that Nessus posted in the Pictures Thread. Huh. Excuse me, I need to go re-evaluate everything I believe about politics. Be back in a year or two.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Combine this (Why does more education lead to less accurate beliefs?) with the maps of US voter preference and US education level that Nessus posted in the Pictures Thread. Huh. Excuse me, I need to go re-evaluate everything I believe about politics. Be back in a year or two.
    Yes, except that graph had a pretty major flaw that I identified.

    I think that's also a separate issue. Minx's point seems to be more that democracy itself seems to be problematic because some people are ill-informed on some issues some of the time.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Yes, except that graph had a pretty major flaw that I identified.

    I think that's also a separate issue. Minx's point seems to be more that democracy itself seems to be problematic because some people are ill-informed on some issues some of the time.
    Flaw wasn't that major, adjusting scale to point out differences is fairly common. Even if you change scales the gradient is the same after all.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Yes, except that graph had a pretty major flaw that I identified.

    I think that's also a separate issue. Minx's point seems to be more that democracy itself seems to be problematic because some people are ill-informed on some issues some of the time.
    You seem strange to me.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    You seem strange to me.
    You are not strange to me.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Ecological fallacy. Google it. The classical example is that support for the KKK was highest in counties with the highest black population. Needless to say, it wasn't the blacks who supported the KKK.

    Not surprised to see your willingness to accept fallacious data whenever it supports your preexisting beliefs.
    Not surprised you couldn't make a comment without including an attack. Further not surprised your attack is stupidly inaccurate. You see, my pre-existing belief is that the more education you have, the better your chances of more accurate beliefs (your apparently educated state notwithstanding). Dip shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    You are not strange to me.
    Seriously? You might reconsider if you knew me better. But you missed your chance at a free lunch.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  9. #9
    Dear right-wing prophets,

    I realized the silliness of the graph I posted in the pictures thread (heellllooooo, maybe that's why it was posted there? Teleological reasoning is not verboten when it comes to human motivations!), and in fact I thought of much worse offences it committed than the one Dread outlined, but I thought it was funny. So fuck off. Ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    You seem strange to me.
    He seems alien to me. I cannot grasp him. I suppose it doesn't matter.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Seriously? You might reconsider if you knew me better. But you missed your chance at a free lunch.
    I'm curious what you would think is strange. Alas the government kept me in DC.

    Free lunch? Who said you would have paid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Regarding the last bit, I see it as just a joke. Plus, educated people are more in cities, bigger cities tend to vote more democrats, so that's probably a better explanation.

    Also, it seemed to me that they had roughly the same number of states per grade. And even with the weird grades, it still had the place with highest education connected to democrats, and lower education with republicans. That does not change if you change the axis... If, for example, 22.5-26.9% was split into several other grades, those grade would still represent lower education and all connect to republican voting. The strange edges are probably right inbetween a republican and democratic state, to make it more obvious, but the republican state then still has lower education. It's not manipulating data, just making the outcome more funny.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Dear right-wing prophets,

    I realized the silliness of the graph I posted in the pictures thread (heellllooooo, maybe that's why it was posted there? Teleological reasoning is not verboten when it comes to human motivations!), and in fact I thought of much worse offences it committed than the one Dread outlined, but I thought it was funny. So fuck off. Ok?


    He seems alien to me. I cannot grasp him. I suppose it doesn't matter.
    I spend enough time with people who take it seriously that I get touchy. But not alien.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I realized the silliness of the graph I posted in the pictures thread (heellllooooo, maybe that's why it was posted there? Teleological reasoning is not verboten when it comes to human motivations!), and in fact I thought of much worse offences it committed than the one Dread outlined, but I thought it was funny. So fuck off. Ok?
    *shrug* Chaloobi seemed to buy it.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Combine this (Why does more education lead to less accurate beliefs?) with the maps of US voter preference and US education level that Nessus posted in the Pictures Thread. Huh. Excuse me, I need to go re-evaluate everything I believe about politics. Be back in a year or two.
    Ecological fallacy. Google it. The classical example is that support for the KKK was highest in counties with the highest black population. Needless to say, it wasn't the blacks who supported the KKK.

    Not surprised to see your willingness to accept fallacious data whenever it supports your preexisting beliefs.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...nce-of-voters/

    And perhaps there is no salvation:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...402375_pf.html



    What say you conservative politics-savvy folks?
    I would also like to know why you ask the 'conservative politics-savvy folks," as opposed to say Chaloobi. The first article demonstrates no real distinction, and the only distinction between liberal and conservatives in the second article was made briefly at the end *wonderful bit of editing there to reinforce the subtextual message the writer wanted to get across*
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  14. #14
    Err, the differences between each gradient were almost totally random. Unless we believe that something special happens in the range of 22.5% and 46.9% graduation rate, it's somewhat meaningless. There's no underlying logic, the map just had to fit four grades into a single chart so it picked those ranges randomly.

    Having people suggest that, of 100 million+ voters, only the educated people voted for their preferred candidate is pretty arrogant.

  15. #15
    Lots of merrit in the OP's article. I can only hope the 3 or so voting guide sites I use each election and draw an avarage of, are accurate. And sometimes they did indeed provide a surprise outcome. But ussualy it's a party I didn't expect to be at 2nd or 3rd place.

    Which of course is no help in the binary US system which has a lot of the emotional mechanics of a recurring football match between rivals. And I imagine it's rather hard to see beyond that. I don't think I'd be very able at it when I see people who I recognize as being rather smart and perseptive fall for it. It's so damn easy to fall for, to draw a side, to have a good side and a bad side, to give into not having to deal with nuance.
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  16. #16
    Besides wanting to shrink government, I have very little in common with the Republican party.

    But you aren't at all alien to me. What does that say?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    ....Alas the government kept me in DC...
    Your employer kept you in DC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Besides wanting to shrink government, I have very little in common with the Republican party....
    Let's shrink the gummint and see if you still have a job.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    But you aren't at all alien to me. What does that say?
    Um, it speaks of hubris on your part. Do you claim to know me?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  19. #19
    You know, now that I think about it, I have to agree that I have absolutely no insight into Dreadnaught's inner reality. I don't understand him as completely as I understand Draco. It's a little unsettling, but it's probably for the best that we aren't granted insight into anything beyond one part of his political ideology and a few parts of his personality eg. the love for loving short bossy girls all over the world without government interference
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  20. #20
    I'm not sure what we've done to make ourselves so inscrutable.

  21. #21
    Let's just say that your opinion of his ability to use reason is unwarranted.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Let's just say that your opinion of his ability to use reason is unwarranted.
    Who died and made you moderator? My opinions are as warranted as yours, inasmuch as the ignore function allows.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  23. #23
    Has he ever not taken at face value anything that makes conservatives or Republicans look bad?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #24
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Has he ever not taken at face value anything that makes conservatives or Republicans look bad?
    Let's be honest here: Conservatives/Republicans actually don't need that much help in the "looking bad"-department.

    As such, taking such things at face value is completely rational.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Has he ever not taken at face value anything that makes conservatives or Republicans look bad?
    I don't see what that has to do with the question at hand.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  26. #26
    Yeah, I don't think splitting hairs on "suggest" really resolves things. If you post it, snicker and say that the map "suggests" anything, it sounds like you're pretty hooked on the chart itself.

  27. #27
    er. this is one of those situations where putting on a different pair of glasses would help you realise the other guy isn't a crook. anyway that map was clearly used to plant that very idea into people's heads. hence the high entertainment value
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  28. #28
    you know, at worst chaloobi allowed himself to be taken in by a line of fallacious (and thoroughly satisfying) reasoning. that is neither unusual nor evil/criminal/unforgivable. HENCE THE EXISTENCE OF A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE CONTAINING CLASSIC ILLUSTRATIVE EXAMPLES. given your past failures in the field of socialised gamma knives perhaps you can excuse this one
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    you know, at worst chaloobi allowed himself to be taken in by a line of fallacious (and thoroughly satisfying) reasoning. that is neither unusual nor evil/criminal/unforgivable. HENCE THE EXISTENCE OF A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE CONTAINING CLASSIC ILLUSTRATIVE EXAMPLES. given your past failures in the field of socialised gamma knives perhaps you can excuse this one
    Funny that he falls for fallacious reasoning only when it makes people he dislikes look bad. And he does this after I mentioned the ecological fallacy about 3 times (and several other people said something similar).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  30. #30
    Loki why do you have to be such a throbbing cock all the time? Jesus fucking christ - if you're this way in person who the fuck can suffer to be in the same room with you??? And Minx why do you lend this dumbassery any legitimacy at all???? And Dread, fuck, this is just more of the what-the-fuck-happened-to-the-Dread-I-once-thought-deserved-uncommon-respect lunacy that has me posting I find you flatly inscruitable. Please all of you accept my invitation to go fuck yourselves for your self-pleasuring and give up this pretending I believe Red Staters are uneducated morons so they vote McCain / Palin. Believe ME, I think you have to be a moron to have voted McCain Palin. No doubt. But plenty of educated people did it and plenty of ignorant morons didn't. I know some of both groups by name. The FUN that was my post was the irony that the chart Nessus posted that was intended to give the impression - dare I say suggest a relationship???? Oh fuck, not another hair fucking splitting fucking semantic argument to stretch your attack tighter than your bald ball sack! - that the ignorant are Red and the Educated are Blue fit so cleanly and elegantly with this article that purports, suggests, claims, produces research to indicate, whatever the fuck words you want to use, that Educated People generally don't know what the fuck is going on vis a vis politics. How fucking beautiful because the FUN is that if you take BOTH at FACE VALUE just for the fucking fun of it, and if you think of yourself as correctly liberal minded and all you conservative fuck wads as callous self-destructive anti-patriotic idiots, as I generally do, then you have to say, on face value, what the fuck? Am I completely befuddled? Are the Tea Baggers right? Is Palin really the right idiot for the job?

    SO PLEASE LOKI, DON'T READ THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH AND POST SOMETHING ELSE TO ATTACK ME THAT DOESN'T IN FACT RELATE TO ANYTHING I ACTUALLY MEANT. REALLY, IT SAYS STUFF ABOUT WHAT AN ASSHOLE YOU CAN BE AND I KNOW YOU'RE NOT MUCH INTO INTROSPECTION. JUST CARRY ON.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

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