Rank and file never really get punished and there's a good reason for that. As the scale grows into the tens and hundreds of thousands it goes from impractical to utterly impossible to do so for even active membership. Reality always wins.
Rank and file never really get punished and there's a good reason for that. As the scale grows into the tens and hundreds of thousands it goes from impractical to utterly impossible to do so for even active membership. Reality always wins.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
I believe the basic reason is "we want to pretend that we're better than them", deep down, every time. Sure, there are practical difficulties depending on the exact punishment, but travel bans, for example, seem quite doable. Especially with the modern capabilities of data storage and processing.Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy
Generally, though, in every war we get a large number of people who really do deserve the most Lewkovskian treatment. Nobody is willing to provide that, since that's something only the bad guys would do. And us, the good guys, can't be seen doing that - so we'll just do nothing, mutter a few phrases about effective punishment being too difficult to implement or outright impossible, and act surprised when the next war comes along and the same thing happens again.
Carthāgō dēlenda est
Ehud Olmert in haaretz:
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024...d-daf733870000
Travel bans of this sort are comparatively easy/simple to implement—request travelers with Israeli citizenship to fill out an online form which includes an item abt active membership in the IDF and/or participation in military activities in eg. Gaza. If they answer in the affirmative, reject their application, but give them the opportunity to opt for an interview, in order to allow humanitarian exceptions (eg. traveling to visit dying family members). You don't have to scale up embassy admin capacity—it will inconvenience travelers, but no more than tens of millions of people all over the "global south" are already inconvenienced. Do random checks every now and then to discourage lying—anyone found lying may be subject to deportation and extended bans. Anyone suspected of being members of units suspected of particularly egregious crimes can ofc. be looked up on int'l arrest warrant databases and handled accordingly.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
A general travel ban isn't really a punishment but you can enact a general travel ban easily enough. Aimless was talking about only applying a punishment to those actively serving in the IDF during this conflict though, and that's a different matter. A punishment targeted at a specific class like that requires a means of effectively identifying those who are part of the class from those who aren't. I don't see Israel providing anyone sufficient information to do so, does anyone else? With small classes, in the hundreds to thousands, you can expend a degree of effort and do it with your own resources. Aimless apparently thinks it can be done solely by voluntary self-identification with "random checks" to effectively discourage lying. I think that's clownish but I suppose the form might be more important to Aimless than the substance. I was thinking they meant something meaningful when they talked of punishment.
Since a minor hurdle in travel is all you were thinking of when you said "punishment" why not do something productive (and inevitably corrupt too, but what are you gonna do) instead? Levy an additional fee as a fine on all paperwork for travel with an Israeli passport, proceeds to go toward providing aid and rebuilding in Gaza?
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Israel doesn't have to—the person seeking entry can do it during their application.
I don't know how often you travel—or under what circumstances—but an administrative hurdle that's minor from a govt's perspective can be disproportionately onerous on the individual. Not even a year ago—prior to the Biden admin's premature and ill-advised decision to let Israel into the VWP—Israeli citizens seeking to travel to the US had to navigate such hurdles as a part of the visa application process, in the form of costly fees, providing documentation, and passing an interview at an American embassy. Many people of Arab descent are hassled in myriad ways when they seek to enter Israel, despite holding US or EU citizenship. Not long ago, my lil sis—who's traveled all over the world over the past several decades—ended up having to deal with a very costly and bothersome visa application process simply because she mistakenly checked the wrong option abt her family background on her electronic visa application to another country.With small classes, in the hundreds to thousands, you can expend a degree of effort and do it with your own resources. Aimless apparently thinks it can be done solely by voluntary self-identification with "random checks" to effectively discourage lying. I think that's clownish but I suppose the form might be more important to Aimless than the substance. I was thinking they meant something meaningful when they talked of punishment.
Since a minor hurdle in travel is all you were thinking of when you said "punishment" why not do something productive (and inevitably corrupt too, but what are you gonna do) instead? Levy an additional fee as a fine on all paperwork for travel with an Israeli passport, proceeds to go toward providing aid and rebuilding in Gaza?
Again, I believe western nations should focus on leaders—employing sanctions and int'l arrest warrants—but targeting active members of the IDF is perfectly feasible. At the very least, there should be consequences for those who've traveled to Israel to fight in Gaza for the IDF—just as there should be consequences for people who, in recent years, traveled from western nations to fight for other groups engaging in grotesque crimes.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
I do hate to travel myself, I grant, and my familiarity with international travel is with the tourist visa. Does the regular Israeli civil documentation show military status/history? I know that while demonstrating your current employee status (which would presumably show being active IDF) can be used to get a Schengen travel visa, it's not the only way used to prove "rootedness". Of course, if someone is engaged in active duty in the IDF, I'm not certain how/why they're traveling at the same time. I've been assuming this is to continue past the termination of this campaign in Gaza. If it's only during then again, clownish and form only, not anything with meaning.I don't know how often you travel—or under what circumstances
So. . . anyone 16 years of age whose families have returned (or immigrated) to Israel from abroad?At the very least, there should be consequences for those who've traveled to Israel to fight in Gaza for the IDF
Again, identification would seem to be problematic. Though this is a much smaller class of people so states might actually being able to finger the kind of foreign-fighter aid you're talking about here through their own resources.—just as there should be consequences for people who, in recent years, traveled from western nations to fight for other groups engaging in grotesque crimes.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Can't wait for your complaints when Trump imposes his next discriminatory travel ban.
I don't doubt that it's a high number and a terrible number, but I think it's safe to doubt many metrics coming out of Gaza.
Apparently, 'some man' burnt himself in front of the Israeli embassy in Washington DC. No one seems to know why.
Four major news outlets have almost the exact same headline.
No one seems to be able to work out who he was or his motives were. How mysterious! If the major news outlets can?t work it out, maybe no one can.
But the Mossad, who knows everything, says that he was the enemy.
Thinking about it, the Mossad are right. The US Liberty attack was justified because they are our enemies.
The logical conclusion of all of this is that we should send more of our tax dollars to Israel.
Uncharacteristically ambitious reporting from CNN:
https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/...tion-intl-cmd/
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Day 146 of Gazans not rising up to overthrow Hamas because Israel bombed them.
Also, 30k dead.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
Well at least they didn't have to starve to death
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
The Ukrainian figure is a vast underestimate. The Siege of Mariupol alone likely killed between 8,000 and 75,000.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ch-2024-02-08/
https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...fe750ea99b9ad9
The problem is once Russia conquers a city, it doesn't exactly give access to outside observers.
Hope is the denial of reality
The only other city Russia actually captured was Kherson, and that was taken and then re-taken without much actual fighting. Mariupol has proven to be the stand-out civilian death event of the war so far, unusual in that it was surrounded in the early days of the war went the fronts were moving quickly, so we end up with a lot of civilians trapped in a place Russia had decided to level with artillery. In most other places where there was heavy fighting civilians have had plenty of time to evacuate. These days, most of the fighting is happening in abandoned towns, and we're just not seeing the massive air campaign against civilian targets we're seeing in Gaza.
I don't doubt the 11k number is an underestimate (though it should be noted that it's Ukraine's number, they have little motive to low-ball the number), but I doubt the true total is anything like 10x as high.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
Considering that Russia's strategy was to carpet-bomb cities, I don't think 100k is unreasonable. The Ukrainians admit to 30k military fatalities. I somehow doubt Russia didn't kill multiple civilians for each soldier, especially early in the conflict.
Hope is the denial of reality
Please don't jinx it
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupie...gaza-city-enar
Stupid, hungry Palestinians.From mid-January to the end of February 2024, the Office has recorded at least 14 incidents involving shooting and shelling of people gathered to receive desperately needed supplies at Al Kuwait Roundabout on Salah Ad Deen Road and Al Nabulsi Roundabout - two entrances to Gaza City - with a majority of these incidents resulting in casualties.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
* Kharkiv and Kherson were never carpet bombed. Kherson in particular was taken with barely a shot fired at the start of the war, so much so that the Ukrainians suspect treachery.
* Russia is indiscriminately bombing Ukrainian cities, but these attacks are sporadic, ineffectual and mostly intercepted and of a much lower intensity than the Israel air campaign in Gaza
* They didn't massacre the entire town of Bucha, they killed ~500 people.
* Since Feb 2nd 2022 Russia occupied an additional 119k km2 of Ukrainian territory on top of what they occupied since 2014. Since then, Ukraine has liberated about 74k km2, meaning Ukraine has in fact retaken a majority of territory Russia occupied since the start of the war.
Last edited by Steely Glint; 03-02-2024 at 06:16 PM.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
Up to 1,000 dead in Izium: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izium_mass_graves
10k+ graves (generally, with more than one person per grave) in Mariupol: https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...811655f14931f2
A single site in Lyman with 200 graves: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/08/w...iscovered.html
Mass graves and torture sites in Kherson: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/torture...ssias-retreat/
A thousand dead in Kharkiv region (mostly in Izium) and over a thousand in Kyv: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/larg...kraine/2847788
Indiscriminate artillery fire at Kherson: https://www.rferl.org/a/residents-uk.../32661951.html
80-200 dead in Borodianka: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Borodianka
So Russia gets brownie points for trying but failing to kill additional Ukrainians?* Russia is indiscriminately bombing Ukrainian cities, but these attacks are sporadic, ineffectual and mostly intercepted and of a much lower intensity than the Israel air campaign in Gaza
Nice of them to only butcher 500 in the span of a month.* They didn't massacre the entire town of Bucha, they killed ~500 people.
That's misleading. Russia controlled much of that territory for only a month. And in that month, Russia managed to carry out multiple massacres. Who knows how many have been imprisoned or killed in territory Russia still controls? Torture is rampant: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/10/w...e-torture.html* Since Feb 2nd 2022 Russia occupied an additional 119k km2 of Ukrainian territory on top of what they occupied since 2014. Since then, Ukraine has liberated about 74k km2, meaning Ukraine has in fact retaken a majority of territory Russia occupied since the start of the war.
Over a million Ukrainian civilians, including a quarter million children, forcibly relocated to Russia as of a year ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...for_Ukrainians
Putin (and other top Russian officials) are on record saying the Ukrainian nation doesn't exist, thereby advocating genocide: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/01/o...-identity.html
Ukrainian-language books have been banned and Russian teachers have been imported to erase the Ukrainian identity in Russian-occupied territories: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrono...n#21st_century
The only reason Russia hasn't wiped out the Ukrainian nation (at least in the eastern half of the country) is because of its second-rate military. Once again, should we be thankful to Russia for trying but failing to commit genocide?
Hope is the denial of reality
There are 6 million people displaced in the Congo over the past few years, and you're calling the last few months of Gaza conflict the worst crimes against humanity of the 21st century.
Many Zionists have disagreements with the strategy and tactics of Israel's Gaza campaign. But people like you drown them out with hyperbole. Not to mention your clear marks of being radicalized with language like "the whole Zionist project" being "intrinsically colonial". Jews are one of the many people indigenous to the region. History is complicated and didn't begin when you learned to scroll a social media feed filled with activists. Check your privilege, bro.
No, I called it "one of" the worst crimes against humanity this century.There are 6 million people displaced in the Congo over the past few years, and you're calling the last few months of Gaza conflict the worst crimes against humanity of the 21st century.
There's this thing called reality.Many Zionists have disagreements with the strategy and tactics of Israel's Gaza campaign. But people like you drown them out with hyperbole.
It is what it is. Stop worrying about whether something is 'hyperbolic' or 'radicalised' and start worrying about whether or not it's true.Not to mention your clear marks of being radicalized with language like "the whole Zionist project" being "intrinsically colonial".
Before the British Mandate, the Jewish population of Palestine was about 6%. By the 1920s, it was about 30%. The Jewish population of Israel is by and large not an indigenous one. Before 'colonialism' became a dirty word, early Zionists were quite happy to call their undertaking colonialism, because that's what it was: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...iron-wall-quotJews are one of the many people indigenous to the region. History is complicated and didn't begin when you learned to scroll a social media feed filled with activists. Check your privilege, bro.
Doesn't mean we have to demolish the state of Israel or deport everyone with a European surname or anything silly like that, if we tried to undo every act of colonialism from the 19th and 20th centuries we'd have to displace like half the world's population but I'm sick of pretending that Israel just sort of naturally coalesced out of the tiny population of native Jews, who the Arabs just hate for no reason, and wasn't actually a deliberate and conscious attempt to create a new state by displacing the existing native population and replace it with a immigrant one in exactly the same way as happened in Australia, New Zealand, the Americas, etc - and that this isn't exactly what they're still trying to do to Palestinians to this day.To imagine, as our Arabophiles do, that they will voluntarily consent to the realisation of Zionism, in return for the moral and material conveniences which the Jewish colonist brings with him, is a childish notion, which has at bottom a kind of contempt for the Arab people; it means that they despise the Arab race, which they regard as a corrupt mob that can be bought and sold, and are willing to give up their fatherland for a good railway system.
Like, "A land without a people for a people without a land" does that sound at all familiar to anyone?
Last edited by Steely Glint; 03-03-2024 at 12:58 PM.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
Hey, fuck you. America was always meant to be White. God made it that way, set it aside for us, just like he sent White Jesus down to die in ancient Israel.
You know... the difference between colonizing the Americas and anywhere in the "Old World" is how new the native Americans were to all those diseases you dirty fucking Europeans cultivated with all your filthy inbred fucking socialist mongrelism. If you all were less filthy, then the 90% or so of native Americans wouldn't have died after that Italian prick showed up with his boat loads of living human shit. So fuck you and take a damn bath.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
You're really arguing that one of these conflicts is a genocide that is the worst conflict of the 21st century and the other isn't.
Isn't it simpler to just argue that they are bad?
I'm arguing for exactly what I said; Israeli's assault on Gaza is one of the worst crimes against humanity of the 21st century.
If Ukraine had lost the battle of Hostomel and Kyiv had become a war zone, and Russia had unleashed this level of destruction on the city no one would have a problem with that statement, but because it's an ally, and therefore it's implicit assumed that they're 'one of the good guys' and 'they wouldn't do that', we're supposed to apply this absurd level of skepticism to the horrific events taking place right in front of our eyes, take seriously ridiculous claims about James Bond bases under hospitals and UNRWA workers, use phrases like 'food-aid related deaths' and ignore the genocidal statements being made in Israel. Or that the whole Zionist project isn't just intrinsically colonial. Or that Biden couldn't just end the entire thing tomorrow with a phone call.
It's space year 2024, time we all grew up and started living in reality.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
Thisweekhour, from the Middle East's Only Democracy feat. The World's Most Moral Army*
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/01/m...cmd/index.htmlCNN has also reviewed documents compiled by major participants in the humanitarian operation that list the items most frequently rejected by the Israelis. These include anesthetics and anesthesia machines, oxygen cylinders, ventilators and water filtration systems.
*according to a top-tier panel of weird nerds
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Edit: @Loki
Yeah, I didn't make the comparison to Russia in Ukraine because I wanted to defend Russia, I did it to demonstrate the sheer scale of the carnage that's been unleashed in Gaza, with the active support of most western governments, though thanks for the reminder that the media is actually capable of calling war crimes what they are when Russia is doing them.
Daily death rate in Gaza higher than any other major 21st Century conflict - Oxfam
Using publicly available data, Oxfam calculated that the number of average deaths per day for Gaza is higher than any recent major armed conflict including Syria (96.5 deaths per day), Sudan (51.6), Iraq (50.8), Ukraine (43.9) Afghanistan (23.8) and Yemen (15.8).
Last edited by Steely Glint; 03-03-2024 at 03:48 AM.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
Even zionists say Zionism is a colonialist endeavor, but sure, let's listen to some soft dingus who gave money to DeSantis.
Last edited by Aimless; 03-03-2024 at 08:16 PM.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
A report from US intelligence:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/u...ce-report.html“Israel probably will face lingering armed resistance from Hamas for years to come, and the military will struggle to neutralize Hamas’s underground infrastructure, which allows insurgents to hide, regain strength and surprise Israeli forces,” the report said.
Shocking that the war is going in exactly the direction that anyone who hasn't been asleep for the past two decades predicted it would.
Hope is the denial of reality
That can't be right, they destroyed the 100% real Hamas Command Post under Al-Shifa hospital.
And the Al-Quds hospital, the Indonesian Hospital, the Nassar Hospital, the Al-Rantsi Children's Hospital, and the Al-Nasser Paediatric Hospital, and approximately 20 others.
No way Hamas has any C&C left at this point.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
don't worry they're torturing the intel they need out of the doctors they captured
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
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