Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
It can be, other times it's just a cultural or personal choice.
Maybe I need to make this simpler for people.
If you don't think circumcision is a big deal, it doesn't bother you if parents choose this for their children from infancy. There aren't a ton of people moaping around their lives missing a foreskin they never remember having.
There are a ton of people who nearly died because of circumcision, though. Or actually did die.
And you still did not answer the question. Troll. And he's honestly comparing braces to circumcision...
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Really? Tons of people who have died from circumcision? Any numbers to back that up?
I find it funny that your militancy on this issue of divine foreskin preservation blinds you to the idea that someone may see it differently. To the point that you actually think I'm trolling.
you appear to be the only one who doesn't think you're trolling. Big surprise there. You're not advancing the conversation as all, pulling the same juvenile repetition stunt you pulled when you incorrectly accused Obama of threatening BP with a boot to the throat.
First you try to hide behind piercings, then bracesas a cultural choice
Deaths
How 20th century of you.
Look, maybe you need us to simplify this for you----medical science changes over time, culturally accepted traditions and rituals do, too.
Clamping, cutting, strangling, or amputating infant foreskin IS now considered a "big deal". The only connection to tons of cut men who aren't moping around, is that they might become fathers of sons. The whole point is for every parent to challenge conventional wisdom, and stop relying on old platitudes or justifications that have lost validity.
It's so rational, it's almost bizarre that you don't get it....
Well, m'dear, the point that you're continually dodging the question to which you obviously have no answer to and furthermore the fact that you're using BRACES as a reference to defend your dodgy arguments make you indeed look like a troll.
Just answer the question. It's easy enough so that even someone like you should understand it. If you don't, this time I'll be granted the right to call you moron, dickhead and troll forevermore.
Once again, this time with feeling: Why can't circumcision wait until the boy is able to make his own decision?
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
No one is advancing the conversation. We all don't agree on the fundamental question of whether this is a big deal or not. And the hundreds of millions of circumcised people aren't bursting down the barricades to prevent future kids from getting circumcised. Bringing up your Obama-BP snafu isn't really relevant. Nor is citing a guy hired by the Circumcision Information and Resource Pages, which appears to be a group of foreskin militants.you appear to be the only one who doesn't think you're trolling. Big surprise there. You're not advancing the conversation as all, pulling the same juvenile repetition stunt you pulled when you incorrectly accused Obama of threatening BP with a boot to the throat.
First you try to hide behind piercings, then braces
Deaths
How 20th century of you.
Look, maybe you need us to simplify this for you----medical science changes over time, culturally accepted traditions and rituals do, too.
Clamping, cutting, strangling, or amputating infant foreskin IS now considered a "big deal". The only connection to tons of cut men who aren't moping around, is that they might become fathers of sons. The whole point is for every parent to challenge conventional wisdom, and stop relying on old platitudes or justifications that have lost validity.
It's so rational, it's almost bizarre that you don't get it....The thing is that it's not considered a big deal. You're trying to make it one, flailing and failing because the hundreds of millions of circumcised men out there generally don't care about this issue like you do.
It's not about "having to wait", it's about the fact that male circumcision is so minor as to be nominal except to a group of people who aren't male-circumcised and somehow think it's a crime. It's not significant enough, either as a preference, medical need or cultural practice, to be worth banning on infants.
It is significant enough to be on medical ethics agendas, and professional guidelines. It's major enough that even insurance companies won't reimburse for the procedure, because it is NOT medically necessary.
It's important enough that it's on all the health/medical/parenting web sites. Physicians and parents no longer accept it as "just do it, it's no big deal, millions are cut...." People are asking why, and saying no, because who the hell cuts a baby "just because it's been done before"?
It's interconnected enough that it's part of the debate on ANY genital mutliation. In case you forgot, the thread started as Female cutting and AAP's strange edict, and retraction. And it's not just about men, but women too, because they're the mothers. I let my husband choose and that was stupid. Now millions of moms and dads are saying let the boy choose when he's older.
You seem to think it's "no big deal" because millions of men are circumsized, and they're not holding rallies or protests, or something. That's just....a strange way to look at this.
Pointing out that you have a rather clear form of trolling is very relevant to the discussion at this point.
You find me a source from a pro-circumcision group. Then again, tracking how many people they kill isn't really good for their public imageNor is citing a guy hired by the Circumcision Information and Resource Pages, which appears to be a group of foreskin militants.
circumcised men out there generally don't care about this issueSpoiler:
Wait, all of a sudden you're declaring the insurance companies as the arbiters of reasonable care?
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
A complication rate of 5% is a pretty big deal. Again, why can't it wait until the child is old enough to decide for itself, dickhead?
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
I doubt you actually think it should be outright banned, but imagine you will say you are just to try and make a point.
No. I'm giving Dread more reasons why his stance of "it's no big deal, and no one really talks about it except foreskin militants" is flat out wrong.
I thought we were still on the question you wouldn't answer?
With this kind of shit-for-brains attitude I'm surprised you didn't just come out and call me a liar right off the bat, instead of insinuating it so poorly like you did.
Insinuations are meant to be understood.
Considered making a flow chart to simplify this for everyone, but meh, its Dread.
You made a claim.
Some posted conflicting information.
Thus that post was bias, or lying. If the conflicting information can't be immediately filed under of one of those two you either stop following the flow, selectively ignore parts of a post, or you find an excuse to change the direction of the thread.
Pointing out how Lewk of you that is would be to easy, so lets bring back an old favorite.
I don't recall making an expansive claim as "circumcision should be banned".
But you did cite "research" by a random dude with an anti-circumcision Website.
That you requested, and has also been requested of you to provide. A request, that among other things in this thread, you have failed to answer for. See how that fits so nicely into your predictable behavior already outlined?
Beggers can't be choosey.
Actually, it's predictable that you would just do a Google Search and link to the first thing you saw without reading it, looking into who wrote it or examining methodology.
The researcher you cited has an anti-circumcision Website. He accounts for his lack of hard data on this question with the acknowledgment "There is reason to believe that many deaths from circumcision are attributed to other causes." Oddly enough he doesn't actually cite a number there. Nor does he cite how one could try to estimate such instances in spite of that data gap.
Bottom line is doing a Google search and finding a kook does not mean you've presented meaningful data. You need to stop believing everything you see on a Website with a nice layout.
All those words, and you didn't address a single fucking thing. That takes skill.
Here, let me do even more of the work for you. Think you can find some dirt to throw on the AAFP?
Now the question is, how many do you consider a "ton", how far back are you willing to consider, and if you are willing to admit the death rate only increases the further back in history you go.
Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 06-06-2010 at 04:21 PM.
No, you've just been posting page after page that everyone who questions circumcision is ridiculous and a little gay, "I mean who talks about dicks, right, it's the fags", you've been incredibly intellectually dishonest and for what, I must wonder
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Amazing how angry and emotional you're getting. It's almost like someone made a comment about an action movie you like or something.
Yes, thank you for linking to a physician lobbying group. Which asserts that, as of 1982, "Death is rare, and mortality risk has been estimated to be 1/500,000 procedures."
Also, the death rate for just about any procedure increases further back in history. What's your point? See, you've just introduced a whole new issue about historical mortality. And now you're going to claim that I haven't addressed it since page two even though you just brought it up.
Eh? Really, the gays? I brought that up?
I fail to see how I can be intellectually dishonest when I'm a foreskin agnostic. I don't care if a parent chooses circumcision or not for their kids. But folks here are casually throwing out words like "mutilation" and "mortality" with no real basis, just an emotional response.
The apoplectic responses here are sorta fascinating.
Dread, you can find the same sorts of views at any number of parenting and pediatric health publications and professional journals. Web sites, too.
Just because YOU don't care about circumcision changing in the US doesn't mean others don't, or if they do care it doesn't make them 'militant' or 'apoplectic'.
How is circumcision changing?
I'm aware of the diversity of views, but none of them support the attitude people are taking to basically suggest that little babies are having their dicks cut off.
You really are dumb? Wow. Ah well. Like I said n pages ago, never mind
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I didn't know you had a soft spot.
Keep oning, I'm sure someone will buy it
My problem has long since ceased to have been with the foreskins of Murika and transitioned into your shit-posting tactics, but you're a fucking leader of the community here! So
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
This is totally on topic. Not trollish at all.
Got to ask, where are you seeing the anger? That I'm pointing out how dismissive yet lazy you are being? That I took offense to you suggesting I was lying about the current condition of my own cock (or my opinion on how my member got that way), or the fact that I said fuck?
Breaking News:
Finally, could this be a sign of progress? At least admitting children die every year for a usually pointless operation that they are unable to consent to.Yes, thank you for linking to a physician lobbying group. Which asserts that, as of 1982, "Death is rare, and mortality risk has been estimated to be 1/500,000 procedures."
Also, the death rate for just about any procedure increases further back in history. What's your point? See, you've just introduced a whole new issue about historical mortality.
Not at all, but please don't let common sense get in the way of your current posting style. There have been so far two issues you seem content on ignoring. Providing your own research figures while you reject whats been presented, and why such operations can't wait until the boy is able to make his own decision?And now you're going to claim that I haven't addressed it since page two even though you just brought it up.
@Nessus I'm honestly baffled, if you think this is a serious issue please feel free to PM me or start a thread so everyone can comment.
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