Belgium kicks Mohammedans in their putrid faces; burqas banned

[Nessus]

Well, let's hear it!

[EyeKhan]

Spoiler:

Christian missionaries?

[Nessus]

The goal is to eradicate religion, not replace one sky pixie idiocy with another!

[EyeKhan]

The goal is to eradicate religion, not replace one sky pixie idiocy with another!

Well, I suppose another solution is needed.

[Hazir]

The goal is to eradicate religion, not replace one sky pixie idiocy with another!

In your lingo : they are both the same sky pixie.

[CitizenCain]

In your lingo : they are both the same sky pixie.

According to the Muslims, anyway. A lot of Christians would disagree, though.

[Hazir]

According to the Muslims, anyway. A lot of Christians would disagree, though.

That's because they aren't very informed. The acceptance of Jesus special status leaves no doubt about it. The fact that in Christianity Jesus is God is a post-ante dogmatic decision. The same debate came to a different conclusion in Islam; God has no aspects. I don't really think it's a coincidence Islam came about where it did, when it did and what its tenets are.

[CitizenCain]

That's because they aren't very informed.

Well, I'm rather well informed, and would disagree (to some extent). IMO, the Islamic God's character is incompatible with the God of the New Testament that Christians worship, leading me to conclude that it's and either/or situation. The two deities are mutually exclusive, if you accept either religion's core beliefs (Jesus as divine/Koran as the literal word of Allah).

So despite both being Abrahamic religions, and having the same roots, the deity is ultimately different for both cases. Somewhat ironically, I'd say that Judaism and Islam are much more similar (and largely compatible) than Islam and Christianity.

[Hazir]

The entity both religions refer to is the same, they have profoundly different interpretations of what the nature of that God is, but what you appear to overlook is that before Nicea what counts for Islamic dogma nowadays was part of Christian philosophy. Jesus = God wasn't always so accepted amongst Christians as it is today.

[']['ear]

Hey, they had to come up with a slick little "oath" to solidify that one, and then have them repeat it all the time.

[Hazir]

Hey, they had to come up with a slick little "oath" to solidify that one, and then have them repeat it all the time.

?

[']['ear]

Th Nicene Creed. It's a pretty little piece of brain washing, and I assume that the motivation behind it was similar to that behind the US pledge of allegiance. Everybody recites it all the time like a bunch of robots in lock stop. I does a great job of making a novel notion into dogma quite quickly.

[CitizenCain]

The entity both religions refer to is the same, they have profoundly different interpretations of what the nature of that God is,

So different, that it seems to me that they must be talking about different entities. Granted, they're both incomprehensibly powerful creator deities, so there is at least one similarity - but I don't see that as meaning that it's the same God being worshiped by both.

but what you appear to overlook is that before Nicea what counts for Islamic dogma nowadays was part of Christian philosophy. Jesus = God wasn't always so accepted amongst Christians as it is today.

Even ignoring that, though, the vast difference between how Muslims view God's character and how Christians view God's character are so vast, I just don't see how there's any way they could be referring to the same thing.

[']['ear]

I'm with you. I've never bought the whole "it's the same God, kumbaya" bit. Perhaps it was viewed as such for a long time due to the novelty of having only ONE god.

[CitizenCain]

I'm with you. I've never bought the whole "it's the same God, kumbaya" bit. Perhaps it was viewed as such for a long time due to the novelty of having only ONE god.

Could be. I suspect it's also related to the uniqueness of God not being named in the Abrahamic tradition. I've yet to hear people say that Romans worshiped the same gods as the classical Greeks, despite most Roman gods being very similar (and in some cases, absolutely identical) in function and domain to the classic Greek gods. Why? Well, the Greeks called their war god "Ares," and the Romans called their war god "Mars." So, they're different, because they have different names, see? And thus, since the Abrahamic God is uniquely unnamed in all 3 faiths, it must be the same God.

At least that's how I think the logic works, and it certainly helps explain who Gnostics were (are?) considered Christian, despite believing that the all-powerful creator God... is actually pure evil (a slightly heretical belief among actual Christians).

[Hazir]

Interesting that you have a concept of how Muslims see God, because Muslims themselves don't really have a concept of God that you can compare to existing Christian concepts. The idea of such concepts themselve are concidered heretical. In Islam God is one, has no aspects and basically his being can't be grasped by humans. This also to an extent explains why form took on such an important role in Islam. Without form Islam is little more than agnosticism leaning towards the idea that God exists. You can see a similar problem with the Koran; people know it as a book. But the word of God wasn't given in a book form, but as literal words. Writing them down was the work of man.

Muslims today will not just say they believe in the same God, they will say that their religion is the original religion of the God of Abraham and the God of Jesus.

And, I will repeat this, it is no accident that Islam arose where Arianism was strongest.

[CitizenCain]

Interesting that you have a concept of how Muslims see God, because Muslims themselves don't really have a concept of God that you can compare to existing Christian concepts. The idea of such concepts themselve are concidered heretical. In Islam God is one, has no aspects and basically his being can't be grasped by humans. This also to an extent explains why form took on such an important role in Islam. Without form Islam is little more than agnosticism leaning towards the idea that God exists. You can see a similar problem with the Koran; people know it as a book. But the word of God wasn't given in a book form, but as literal words. Writing them down was the work of man.

Muslims today will not just say they believe in the same God, they will say that their religion is the original religion of the God of Abraham and the God of Jesus.

And, I will repeat this, it is no accident that Islam arose where Arianism was strongest.

It's all well and good to say God is formless and has no aspects or qualities, but that's not how people (or even our universe, for that matter) work - God's "character" is revealed in how he relates to people, and the commandments and relationships between Christians and their God are vastly different than the commandments and relationship between Muslims and their God. So different, that as I see it, it cannot be the same entity, but rather must be two distinct ones.

And it seems that the complete formlessness of Allah contrasted with the "character" and "form" of the Christian God is further evidence that Christians and Muslims worship different entities.

[Hazir]

It's all well and good to say God is formless and has no aspects or qualities, but that's not how people (or even our universe, for that matter) work - God's "character" is revealed in how he relates to people, and the commandments and relationships between Christians and their God are vastly different than the commandments and relationship between Muslims and their God. So different, that as I see it, it cannot be the same entity, but rather must be two distinct ones.

And it seems that the complete formlessness of Allah contrasted with the "character" and "form" of the Christian God is further evidence that Christians and Muslims worship different entities.

Yeah after Christians rooted out Arian Christianity.

[EyeKhan]

Th Nicene Creed. It's a pretty little piece of brain washing, and I assume that the motivation behind it was similar to that behind the US pledge of allegiance. Everybody recites it all the time like a bunch of robots in lock stop. I does a great job of making a novel notion into dogma quite quickly.

You're not Catholic? The whole mass is like this, you know.

[']['ear]

I was raised Catholic. Blech. I'm well aware that the whole mass is like that. Imagine my surprise when I first walked into a church of a different stripe.

[Nessus]

At least that's how I think the logic works, and it certainly helps explain who Gnostics were (are?) considered Christian, despite believing that the all-powerful creator God... is actually pure evil (a slightly heretical belief among actual Christians).

That's a bit of a skewed representation of your usual gnostic heresy, the entity called God which created the physical realm is indeed evil since material things are the root of suffering and so on, but there's the other entity (much like the energy beings in any two-bit sci-fi) of pure light or something which created all things spiritual, and it is this being that ought be worshipped. Then there's all the cool stuff like how Judas made the pen-ultimate sacrifice as compared to puss-meister Jesus, and so forth.

You'd like some interpretations of gnosticism, by the way; if all physical cum material things are worthless and impede the spirit, it doesn't matter what you do physically. About two seconds after someone came up with that theological nugget, everyone exploded into an orgy. And so it goes.

And the gnostic heretics were one of the saner sects of early Christianity!

[EyeKhan]

I was raised Catholic. Blech. I'm well aware that the whole mass is like that. Imagine my surprise when I first walked into a church of a different stripe.

You escaped the Catholic church just to join another brain washing institution? Whatever for?

[CitizenCain]

You escaped the Catholic church just to join another brain washing institution? Whatever for?

The DNC was giving out those nifty baseball caps he likes so much.