What the hell is libertarianism?

[CitizenCain]

I'd swear this is more or less exactly what I was saying.

If you say so... could be I'm just splitting hairs again. <shrug> It's something to do while I'm waiting to die of fin rot...

I did NOT say that. I even went so far as to say I wasn't saying that. Just that there is no historical precendent for our current civlization.

Sure, but you base that belief (or seem to) on the fact that our toys are newer and shinier. Seems like that's pretty much the same thing as saying we're better because our toys are.

That's odd, becasue the worlds #2 and #3 economies were destroyed in the wars - China (which technically didn't have much of an economy anyway before it was attacked by Japan) and Japan. And Germany just lost the #1 spot of largest export economy in the world. Kind of flies in the face of your theory there.

Not really, since practically *every* other economy in the world was destroyed too. Certainly every other economy of note... and someone has to be second and third, so the fact that the 2nd and 3rd place economies were also destroyed in WWII doesn't mean much. But the fact that practically every economy in the world was destroyed does explain why there's such a big gap between first place (USA) and everyone else. We account for ~5% of the world's population and ~one third of its GDP. If you've got another explanation for why, I'm all ears.

One thing all those countries do have is healthy investment in their economic, educational and technological infrastructure by the government via tax dollars. Dude, you have to face it - libertarianism would be the death of this nation as any kind of a world power - military, economic or technological.

And, by that logic, the way to solidify our status as a world power is to go communist. Brilliant!

[LittleFuzzy]

Not really, since practically *every* other economy in the world was destroyed too. Certainly every other economy of note... and someone has to be second and third, so the fact that the 2nd and 3rd place economies were also destroyed in WWII doesn't mean much. But the fact that practically every economy in the world was destroyed does explain why there's such a big gap between first place (USA) and everyone else. We account for ~5% of the world's population and ~one third of its GDP. If you've got another explanation for why, I'm all ears.

Even back then, we were the largest developed economy by a very substantial margin *the British Empire was larger, but was structured rather differently* We'd followed the same industrial development track at roughly the same time as the other most developed powers, but were at least half-again the size of the others in population and larger still in area and presented rather more investment opportunities as a result, meaning, all other things being equal, our economy would probably continue to grow faster anyway. *Russia would probably have been a better option for global capital flows, but since it was coming over all Soviet, it took itself out of the pool for a great deal of investment* We were also already in the process of reorienting the global financial markets to be centered in our country rather than Britain, and that also seems to be an economic multiplier. The shift was certainly accelerated by the way the US State and Treasury departments deliberately set out to beggar the British Empire in WWII, and without it maybe something might have happened which would have turned things around, but it was already happening.

You can go ahead and say "geography" still, if you want, but it's not mostly because of WWI and II.

[EyeKhan]

Sure, but you base that belief (or seem to) on the fact that our toys are newer and shinier. Seems like that's pretty much the same thing as saying we're better because our toys are.

It's not just about technology. It's about culture, population, communication, all rolled together. TBH I can't remember what the hell this is about, just that I didn't mean technology alone. So cut it out.

And, by that logic, the way to solidify our status as a world power is to go communist. Brilliant!

No it isn't. What it means is there are many 'projects' which are key to producing a great nation that a government is required to accomplish precisely because the government is (*often*) concerned with making a great nation whereas the private sector is chiefly concerned with serving itself even at the expense of making a great nation.

[Catgrrl]

I never have cash for the ice cream man. My parents still laugh because when I hear the music my eyes light up.

Ya, it's pretty dark here by 8 or so right now.

[']['ear]

Off topic here: but should I be concerned that the ice cream man in my mother's neighborhood was playing his music and driving around after 9 last week? Hmmm....

Yeah! That happened in our neighborhood too!

[Being]

24/7 drug delivery service?

[']['ear]

Good idea

[Catgrrl]

That has actually happened in a neighboring city before. But the van they used was obviously not the ice cream truck.

The one I saw was a Blue Bunny van, so it looked legit. Who knows.

[littlelolligagged]

That has actually happened in a neighboring city before. But the van they used was obviously not the ice cream truck.

The one I saw was a Blue Bunny van, so it looked legit. Who knows.

I don't think they come with licenses to sell ice cream and sex offender/felony checks or anything like that.

Kinda creepy, now that I think about it. Not that I ever actually have cash when one comes by here, anyway.

[']['ear]

I do remember being hyper-attuned to that sound when I was a kid. The ding ding man (they had this stupid bell they rang by hand--yeah, good driving safety there, I bet.) In a certain age range I could hear it, beg money from my parents and get to the curb in about 30 seconds.

PS You want creepy? What could possibly sound creepier than "ding ding man?" Frackin 70s.

[GGT]

Cain, human civilization today, as we know it, is entirely without social, political, economic and technological precedent. There is no past civilization you can point to and say "that was like we are today, and we're going to end up like them." I'm not saying we're high flying magical super technocrats that can't have a total collapse, but there is no historical precedent like you are arguing. I believe I've predicted before the odds are our civlization's going to collapse in the next hundred years and I believe its a better than 50/50 chance. But it will be a different kind of collapse than ever before and for entirely different reasons.

We're more interconnected now. Just look at what a volcano did to global travel and commerce, and what's happening with Greece. When a giant OR a midget falls, it will take others down too, like dominoes. Jenga.

[Young Mage]

Take me as your apprentice Cain.

[Catgrrl]

You'll want to watch your cornhole if you are going to be under Cain.

teehee

[EyeKhan]

Take me as your apprentice Cain.

Jesus, you really are stupid, arn't you?

You'll want to watch your cornhole if you are going to be under Cain.

teehee

[Nessus]

lol

[Young Mage]

You'll want to watch your cornhole if you are going to be under Cain.

teehee

that's the kettle calling the kell.

Jesus, you really are stupid, arn't you?

You're just jealous you're not my role model!

[EyeKhan]

that's the kettle calling the kell.



You're just jealous you're not my role model!

It would be quite a challenge; mentoring you, I mean.

[Young Mage]

It would be quite a challenge; mentoring you, I mean.

Give it your best shot.

[Young Mage]

Only if you adhere to foolish definitions of the word "mentor," whereby the mentored party is supposed to be improved or bettered or so on.

I may have just made a pact with the Devil himself....

[GGT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ciFTP_KRy4&feature=fvw

[Young Mage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEf6L...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ciFTP_KRy4&feature=fvw

Isn't that the movie where he's having sex with a girl underneath a table or something? I think i've seen this movie 5 years ago.

[CitizenCain]

It's from Amadeus, if that's what you mean... though I don't specifically remember that scene. Possibly because there are so many better options for films on sekzing.

[Nessus]

And, by that logic, the way to solidify our status as a world power is to go communist. Brilliant!

You've conflated socialism with communism in a couple of threads now, is this intentional and if so, do you think it's honest?

[CitizenCain]

You've conflated socialism with communism in a couple of threads now, is this intentional and if so, do you think it's honest?

No, I've said that socialism taken to its logical conclusion is communism. Where the government owns the other half of you.

You can go ahead and say "geography" still, if you want, but it's not mostly because of WWI and II.

You really think so? That the economic gap between the USA and the rest of the world isn't primarily related to the rest of the world blowing itself up? Sure, we had enough advantages to be #1 either way, but I don't think they [nearly] account for the difference.

[LittleFuzzy]

You really think so? That the economic gap between the USA and the rest of the world isn't primarily related to the rest of the world blowing itself up? Sure, we had enough advantages to be #1 either way, but I don't think they [nearly] account for the difference.

The loss to labor would have been and is the most far-reaching effect, and it is plainly not the primary determinative anymore, despite the obsessive focus on the "Boomer" generation *which is actually more narcisstic than it is based on reality*

[CitizenCain]

The loss to labor would have been and is the most far-reaching effect

Really? Not the loss of capital and infrastructure? It's not that hard to create new labor (I hear that it's caused by sexual intercourse, which is a fairly regular occurrence), but private coitus almost never leads to the generation of new capital or the construction of a new skyscraper.

[LittleFuzzy]

Really? Not the loss of capital and infrastructure? It's not that hard to create new labor (I hear that it's caused by sexual intercourse, which is a fairly regular occurrence), but private coitus almost never leads to the generation of new capital or the construction of a new skyscraper.

The infrastructure of Western Europe was repaired and rebuilt with remarkable speed, *which also restored their capital, naturally* and their economies, like ours, have transitioned to post-industrial since then anyway. Bringing them back from the devastation happened rather quicker than the demographics turned around *and they've turned around again since then, with the collapse of birth-rates which followed the post-industrial economy*

[Young Mage]

Socialism = 1984?
Communism = impossible to achieve, a self-sufficient egalitarian eutopia is impossible.

or am I like waaaaay off?

[']['ear]

Not really, since practically *every* other economy in the world was destroyed too. Certainly every other economy of note... and someone has to be second and third, so the fact that the 2nd and 3rd place economies were also destroyed in WWII doesn't mean much. But the fact that practically every economy in the world was destroyed does explain why there's such a big gap between first place (USA) and everyone else. We account for ~5% of the world's population and ~one third of its GDP. If you've got another explanation for why, I'm all ears.

Wait, are you saying that the US is economically dominant because of WWII? Really? 65 years later?!?!

Every commentator I ever read considered that over and done 30 years after at the latest. Otherwise, how could German and Japanese economies have kicked such serious butt in the 80s?

Try parsimony: the US invested far more than anybody else in basic research, and our economic dominance is based almost exclusively on science and technology. In contrast, our manufacturing dominance was gone decades ago. Hey, around the time that Japan and Germany surged in the 80s!

Correlation doesn't mean causation, but it sure as hell should make you stop and think.

Socialism = 1984?
Communism = impossible to achieve, a self-sufficient egalitarian eutopia is impossible.

or am I like waaaaay off?

Well, part of your post is accurate. What is that Mark Twain quote?

[CitizenCain]

Wait, are you saying that the US is economically dominant because of WWII? Really? 65 years later?!?!

Every commentator I ever read considered that over and done 30 years after at the latest. Otherwise, how could German and Japanese economies have kicked such serious butt in the 80s?

Every commentator I've read didn't see the recent economic meltdown coming either.

Evidence that what economic commentators say may or may not bear any resemblance to reality.

Try parsimony: the US invested far more than anybody else in basic research, and our economic dominance is based almost exclusively on science and technology. In contrast, our manufacturing dominance was gone decades ago. Hey, around the time that Japan and Germany surged in the 80s!

See Loki's post.

The figures that put the US funding on science and technology research as significantly higher than the rest of the developed world (as opposed to having it approximately on par) include the research done by those free market research labs (Bell Labs and the like)... which I find ironic, given how much we hear that the private sector can't drive basic scientific research. Good thing Bell Labs and IBM and the like didn't get that memo.

No it isn't. What it means is there are many 'projects' which are key to producing a great nation that a government is required to accomplish precisely because the government is (*often*) concerned with making a great nation whereas the private sector is chiefly concerned with serving itself even at the expense of making a great nation.

Horse shit. Bell Labs. Totally private funded (by one of those evil, mega-corporations that hate the country), and yet it alone, (to say nothing of the research arms of other large private firms) has arguably made more breakthroughs and advances in basic science and technology than the whole of the US federal government.

And anyway, if you want to live in a "great nation," move to China. The whole history of political liberalism is the history of putting the welfare and rights of individuals before the importance of having a grand empire or a "great nation."