Oh the Irony

[Loki]

But I thought that as long as we give more power to the government, everything would be ok?

[EyeKhan]

They haven't concluded it. They provided an estimate they believe is more reliable than the one used by BP (probably true). Their whole point is that more reliable tools have to be used before anyone can come up with a conclusion.

That's an awful lot of words to say nothing.

[CitizenCain]

But I thought that as long as we give more power to the government, everything would be ok?

You just watch it, kitty.

With all your logical and "making sense" nonsense, you're "this" close to getting tarred and feathered with the rest of 'em.

[Loki]

That's an awful lot of words to say nothing.

I.E. Responsible research.

[EyeKhan]

You mean these assholes want us to wait to pass judgment on the incident, until we have some idea of what actually happened?

They're as bad as BP! We should tar and feather the lot of them now, while we still have the mob mentality on our side!!!

Here's your pompom since you're playing the role of Loki cheerleader today instead of thinking.

[Being]

But I thought that as long as we give more power to the government, everything would be ok?

Not following the rules is not okay.

[Loki]

Not following the rules is not okay.

Oh, I forgot that the government always follows the rules and this is the first exception to that rule.

[EyeKhan]

But I thought that as long as we give more power to the government, everything would be ok?

Is it actually power if the administration directs the agency not to do anything?

[Being]

Oh, I forgot that the government always follows the rules and this is the first exception to that rule.

Jail time.

[CitizenCain]

Oh, I forgot that the government always follows the rules

And only crazy lolbertarians (and unthinking Loki cheerleaders) would suggest otherwise.

[EyeKhan]

I.E. Responsible research.

Nice strawman. On actual topic, I'll bet my left nut against yours the ball park estimates ranging, in total, from 20k to 100k barrels per day are far closer to the mark than BP's estimate of 5k per day.

[EyeKhan]

And only crazy lolbertarians (and unthinking Loki cheerleaders) would suggest otherwise.[/URL]

I'll take that as your first official concession.

[CitizenCain]

Nice strawman. On actual topic, I'll bet my left nut against yours the ball park estimates ranging, in total, from 20k to 100k barrels per day are far closer to the mark than BP's estimate of 5k per day.

It's easy to be right when the range of your estimate is 4 times your lower bound, and 80% of your upper bound.

That's like estimating that all the people you see at the mall today will be between 0 and 80. Well, yeah, but...

I'll take that as your first official concession.

Yeah, and you'll undoubtedly continue demanding more concessions to the government, despite how abysmally that's worked out in the past (and despite having a link to a brief history on the topic).

Like Einstein said, only the universe and human stupidity are infinite... and the universe might be finite after all.

[Being]

U.S. Said to Allow Drilling Without Needed Permits

I wonder why the article doesn't mention (actually avoids mentioning) the name of the agency that issues the permits?

[Loki]

Jail time.

I'm looking forward to that actually happening. Don't hold your breath though.

Nice strawman. On actual topic, I'll bet my left nut against yours the ball park estimates ranging, in total, from 20k to 100k barrels per day are far closer to the mark than BP's estimate of 5k per day.

Good thing science isn't made by making bets. It relies on something called evidence.

[EyeKhan]

It's easy to be right when the range of your estimate is 4 times your lower bound, and 80% of your upper bound.

You (disappointingly) miss the point. The low bound of the range is 4x BP's estimate. The best case is still huge.

Yeah, and you'll blah blah blah.

Whatever dude. This just shows one more time that "self-regulation" is complete bullshit and someone's got to enforce the rules on these guys or they're going to fuck us again and again and again. (and again) AND AGAIN and aFUKINGgain.

[Loki]

Whatever dude. This just shows one more time that "self-regulation" is complete bullshit and someone's got to enforce the rules on these guys or they're going to fuck us again and again and again. (and again) AND AGAIN and aFUKINGgain.

How the hell did you manage to get that lesson? FFS, there was regulation. The government chose not to apply it.

[EyeKhan]

Good thing science isn't made by making bets. It relies on something called evidence.

Don't talk to me about science. (And you know I'm right, that's why you didn't take the bet.)

What the fuck are we disagreeing about anyway??? I hate it when you do this.

[CitizenCain]

Whatever dude. This just shows one more time that "self-regulation" is complete bullshit and someone's got to enforce the rules on these guys or they're going to fuck us again and again and again. (and again) AND AGAIN and aFUKINGgain.

Actually, it seems to show "once more," that "government regulation" is complete bullshit... since the rig in question looks to have passed government scrutiny.

Yippie! Guvmint has saved us all again!

[Loki]

The whole point is that these guys are scientists, and therefore have to have strong theoretical and empirical evidence for their claims. It might very well be true that 100k barrels of oil is being spilled, but you can't make that estimate out of thin air.

[EyeKhan]

How the hell did you manage to get that lesson? FFS, there was regulation. The government chose not to apply it.

Right because the Bush Administration took the "they can regulate themselves" approach and refused to apply the regulations. Its the same as not having the regulations. One more conservative experiment down the fucking tubes and costing us billions and the environment god knows what.

[Being]

Actually, it seems to show "once more," that "government regulation" is complete bullshit... since the rig in question looks to have passed government scrutiny.

No it did not pass scrutiny. It was given an illegal nod and was operating without a permit.

[GGT]

The news I read said BP was using some firm in Seattle to estimate the amount of oil being leaked by using a model for smaller finite spills (satellite images and surface area of visible oil slicks) that can't be used on this scale, let alone on an active oil volcano. Some other scientists have offered a better model to use, but they've been told it doesn't really matter, because it won't change the containment attempts.

[Loki]

Right because the Bush Administration took the "they can regulate themselves" approach and refused to apply the regulations. Its the same as not having the regulations. One more conservative experiment down the fucking tubes and costing us billions and the environment god knows what.

Good thing the Obama Administration did an about turn in the 13 months it's been in power. Oh wait.

No it did not pass scrutiny. It was given an illegal nod and was operating without a permit.

Erm, under the current law, the regulatory agency had the option to waive regulatory requirement, and this was encouraged by the politicians.

[CitizenCain]

No it did not pass scrutiny. It was given an illegal nod and was operating without a permit.

Proof that the government can't even be relied upon to enforce the laws it has passed... so the clear solution is to pass more laws for the government to enforce, obviously.

Yippie! Guvmint!

Erm, under the current law, the regulatory agency had the option to waive regulatory requirement, and this was encouraged by the politicians.

You mean that the government plays politics with regulations/legislation, and doesn't solely rely on the facts? <gasp> How unexpected and unique a development this must be.

[EyeKhan]

Actually, it seems to show "once more," that "government regulation" is complete bullshit... since the rig in question looks to have passed government scrutiny.

Yippie! Guvmint has saved us all again!

See above.

The whole point is that these guys are scientists, and therefore have to have strong theoretical and empirical evidence for their claims. It might very well be true that 100k barrels of oil is being spilled, but you can't make that estimate out of thin air.

Go here, its the front page story. http://www.npr.org/ Read/listen to it. You will then know first the estimate is just an estimate and no claim otherwise has been made but also it didn't come out of thin air, it came from established and umpteen verified methodology based on observed evidence and lastly that three different estimates were done by three different dudes based on the same evidence and they all came to one identical conclusion - the spill is almost certainly far worse than BP is claiming.

[Loki]

Who knew that three estimates using the same assumptions would lead to the same conclusion. That certainly qualifies as additional evidence that those assumptions were correct. I think I'll take the word of the scientists in question, who themselves admit that more reliable measures have to be created.

[EyeKhan]

Good thing the Obama Administration did an about turn in the 13 months it's been in power. Oh wait.

Do you have any actual knowledge what the Obama administration policy is on permitting deep sea drilling projects? Do you really think it's the same as GW, Chenney and the boys?

[EyeKhan]

Who knew that three estimates using the same assumptions would lead to the same conclusion. That certainly qualifies as additional evidence that those assumptions were correct. I think I'll take the word of the scientists in question, who themselves admit that more reliable measures have to be created.

Just read it. This isn't about points dude.

EDIT: You know, I just let you do it again. You're arguing these estimates arn't definitive. I never claimed they were. I just let you get away with having the argument you wanted to have instead of one that I actually posted.

[CitizenCain]

I think I'll take the word of the scientists in question,

Well, now, we can't have you doing that.

Clearly, the much more prudent approach is to take the word of politicians and the whims of the mob on this issue.

Do you have any actual knowledge what the Obama administration policy is on permitting deep sea drilling projects? Do you really think it's the same as GW, Chenney and the boys?

Well, like every other fucking issue, it seems that the Obama policy is to do exactly the same as Bush and the boys, while claiming the same thing is actually now the opposite.

So... yeah, seems like a safe bet that the Obama policy on deep sea drilling isn't substantively different thatn Bush's.