Greece, the gloves are off

[GGT]

Their government has been corrupt for ages. That's why my sister's in-laws became political refugees (sounds rather bad, but too hush-hush to really discuss it). But every government is broke or been deficit spending for a long time. Germany, the stronger one, can't hold up the eurozone. If I was German, I'd be pissed at Greece, too.

It'd almost be like if/when California finally bites the dust and expects all other states to pick them up.

[Being]

It'd almost be like if/when California finally bites the dust and expects all other states to pick them up.

Hey, we'd be happy with a fair share of federal revenue. Too long we have been the source for most other states federal funding.

[GGT]

Hey, we'd be happy with a fair share of federal revenue. Too long we have been the source for most other states federal funding.

Please, no charts!

But you know, for a state that's as big as some nations, with a GDP to prove it, balancing your state budget looks like a Hollywood production. It's like when the screen writers guild went on strike to prove how important they were to the industry. Want humus and black olives with that?

[Being]

Please, no charts!

But you know, for a state that's as big as some nations, with a GDP to prove it, balancing your state budget looks like a Hollywood production. It's like when the screen writers guild went on strike to prove how important they were to the industry. Want humus and black olives with that?

I'm going to keep repeating this until someone takes me seriously and responds, governments should be forced to work with realized revenue not future revenue.

[Lewkowski]

Now it could put a bunch of major banks in a tailspin, including a bunch German and Dutch banks. The situation would be very grim indeed.

Then those banks can default too. Shouldn't invest in shit countries like Greece. If you do prepare to be burned. Investment in heavily socialist countries should of course have a pretty high risk of sovereign default. The only question is when it will happen.

And in that state we'd have to face a situation where Portugal, Spain, Italy, Ireland and the UK are up for grabs. I think complete breakdown wouldn't even start to describe it.

Countries that fail to pay their obligations should fail. Countries that fail to reign in spending (Including America) should have to shape up or collapse. Other countries are under no obligation to help them nor should they. It is better to take a painful dose of default and economic suffering now then to allow freeloading bastards to continue living one more day in their house of cards of socialist perversion.

[CitizenCain]

I'm going to keep repeating this until someone takes me seriously and responds, governments should be forced to work with realized revenue not future revenue.

Look, you're right. (And actually, Jefferson wrote in one of his letters that his greatest regret about the constitution was that they didn't prevent the government from borrowing money in it.)

But, of course, it's a moot point, since no politician is going to give up that power (to get re-elected by paying his constituents back with their own money, decades later), so I'm not sure what the value of saying it over and over again is. Don't stop on my account, mind you, but it's just as realistic as saying politicians should be held personally accountable for the laws they get passed. They should, but it'll never happen, because no politician will let it happen.

[GGT]

I'm going to keep repeating this until someone takes me seriously and responds, governments should be forced to work with realized revenue not future revenue.

I saw you posted that (somewhere). It's a nice dream. But borrowing has become a reality. There's money to be made in lending, too. And when traditional lending/borrowing moves too slowly, financial wizards create "instruments". Everyone loves it, governments especially but also lawyers and accountants, and central bankers. Debt = asset or a tool to use in the future, power in a promise.

How to put the toothpaste back in the tube?

[Being]

How to put the toothpaste back in the tube?

Cut off the backside and staple it closed when you are done.

[CitizenCain]

Cut off the backside and staple it closed when you are done.

I dunno if that'll work for politicians, but I think we should give it a try and see what happens.

[GGT]

Cut off the backside and staple it closed when you are done.

Nah. Eventually you need more toothpaste. Maybe we don't really need toothpaste? My dentist says so. We've just bought the marketing. It's more important to brush and floss, the rest is fragrance and fluoride. Makes us feel like we're doing something good to use toothpaste, though. Good Housekeeping or ADA seal of approval. Fancy pumps and bottles, stripes and gimmicks. Baking Soda or peroxide is just as good for cosmetic abrasives and whiteners, mint for fresh breath.

If politicians are toothpaste, let's try tooth powder for a while. Rinse and spit.

[Hazir]

Then those banks can default too. Shouldn't invest in shit countries like Greece. If you do prepare to be burned. Investment in heavily socialist countries should of course have a pretty high risk of sovereign default. The only question is when it will happen.



Countries that fail to pay their obligations should fail. Countries that fail to reign in spending (Including America) should have to shape up or collapse. Other countries are under no obligation to help them nor should they. It is better to take a painful dose of default and economic suffering now then to allow freeloading bastards to continue living one more day in their house of cards of socialist perversion.

You're really batfuck crazy when it comes to economics.

[CitizenCain]

You're really batfuck crazy when it comes to economics.

Fixed that for ya.

[Dreadnaught]

Rhetoric huh. Germany already loaned them a lot. I imagine this isn't just politics as usual. What amazes me more is the attitude of Greece, and another planned strike by private and public workers.

It not much different in some of our state capitals. We face massive budget crises, and state employee unions use their enormous accumulated clout to block sane reforms.

Hey, we'd be happy with a fair share of federal revenue. Too long we have been the source for most other states federal funding.

Hey, I would be happy paying a fair share of federal taxes. Too long I've been the source for other people's funding. Especially the 48% who don't pay income taxes.

Frankly I love that you intuitively complain about nonsensical income redistribution with one side of your mouth, then advocate it with the other.

[GGT]

It not much different in some of our state capitals. We face massive budget crises, and state employee unions use their enormous accumulated clout to block sane reforms.

Right. Then all those threads I've started in the past, a long time ago at the other place, about canaries in coal mines, debt, entitlements, food security, health care, insurance, emergencies, elegant gaussian algorithms, globalism, revolutions, were really just me talking to myself.

You guys used to love to call me a pessimist, a chicken little, reactionary. Even stupid, uninformed, or drunk. Worked well while you were in college and living high on the hog, or in your parents' basement. Not sure why, but I remember years ago Little Fuzzy telling me I had no idea what I was talking about in the bond market, specifically municipal bonds, when I said that was a form of "voting".

I still don't think you guys realize the magnitude and depth of what's happened since 2007. Especially since you never admitted that SOME of us have been trying to honk the horn since ~ 2000. That's right, it goes back that far and farther. Old people who've lived thru recessions and bubbles, but didn't have credentials behind the name, or weren't considered "experts", we were so easily dismissed.

You just lumped all elders with your parents, who are sucking the system dry. You won't stand up to them, but you feel fine whining about other people's parents? Well no wonder things suck so bad.

[Being]

Frankly I love that you intuitively complain about nonsensical income redistribution with one side of your mouth, then advocate it with the other.

I have never endorsed nonsensical income redistribution.

[GGT]

I have never endorsed nonsensical income redistribution.

yur doin it wrong (I think?) Ask him if his parents know their total contributions to Medicare and SS, and if they've already exceeded the amount they paid in plus a bit of compound interest, or are expected to exceed their contribution over their lifetime. Or if their employer subsidized their healthcare. Or if they've ever lived in NYC rent controlled housing. Or belonged to a union or benefited from union lobbying efforts.

[Dreadnaught]

Right. Then all those threads I've started in the past, a long time ago at the other place, about canaries in coal mines, debt, entitlements, food security, health care, insurance, emergencies, elegant gaussian algorithms, globalism, revolutions, were really just me talking to myself.

You guys used to love to call me a pessimist, a chicken little, reactionary. Even stupid, uninformed, or drunk. Worked well while you were in college and living high on the hog, or in your parents' basement. Not sure why, but I remember years ago Little Fuzzy telling me I had no idea what I was talking about in the bond market, specifically municipal bonds, when I said that was a form of "voting".

I still don't think you guys realize the magnitude and depth of what's happened since 2007. Especially since you never admitted that SOME of us have been trying to honk the horn since ~ 2000. That's right, it goes back that far and farther. Old people who've lived thru recessions and bubbles, but didn't have credentials behind the name, or weren't considered "experts", we were so easily dismissed.

You just lumped all elders with your parents, who are sucking the system dry. You won't stand up to them, but you feel fine whining about other people's parents? Well no wonder things suck so bad.

Ehhhh? You think people have been denying state budget crises?

I have never endorsed nonsensical income redistribution.

That's two quoted-for-the-record posts from you.

yur doin it wrong (I think?) Ask him if his parents know their total contributions to Medicare and SS, and if they've already exceeded the amount they paid in plus a bit of compound interest, or are expected to exceed their contribution over their lifetime. Or if their employer subsidized their healthcare. Or if they've ever lived in NYC rent controlled housing. Or belonged to a union or benefited from union lobbying efforts.

1) Yes, they give you that on the forms, right?

2) They have never lived in NYC rent controlled housing, been in a union or worked in proximity to union shops.

3) I would gladly end their medicare and/or social security in exchange for a tax refund. I'll be supporting them if needed anyway. It's ludicrous to sacrifice generations of solid economic growth because of these government debt pyramid schemes.

[Being]

That's two quoted-for-the-record posts from you.

I can't imagine what it is you find so funny since it was you that provided the qualifier. Maybe you're just being nonsensical.

[GGT]

Ehhhh? You think people have been denying state budget crises?

Big duh.

1) Yes, they give you that on the forms, right?

No, it's not given to you on the forms. The forms just tell you what the payroll deductions were, and what the expected checks amount will be. There is no line saying "if you retire at age 65, your contributions will be used up in the first two years of drawing benefits".

2) They have never lived in NYC rent controlled housing, been in a union or worked in proximity to union shops.

3) I would gladly end their medicare and/or social security in exchange for a tax refund. I'll be supporting them if needed anyway. It's ludicrous to sacrifice generations of solid economic growth because of these government debt pyramid schemes.

There would be no tax refund. Not to them and not to you. The money is already spent. And they can't opt out (I already tried that, it's considered unconstitutional, heh). But the hilarious part is....you can't support them as needed, unless you make about a million a year, and don't spend a dime on yourself. Well, unless they die before they're in they're 70s and have no health problems along the way.

If you or they had to pay full price for even routine meds, tests and checkups, including dental and vision, that would cost about $20,000/ year if they're relatively healthy. Long term care is not affordable OOP and insurance isn't much help either. Forget it if they get cancer, fall and break a hip, have an autoimmune disorder like MS or Parkinsons, Alzheimers or Lewes Bodies dementia. So yeah it's a pyramid scheme. And you're at the bottom of the heap. Who're you gonna dump off first.....?

[earthJoker]

How to put the toothpaste back in the tube?

That's not that hard, I think it's quite easy without even altering the tube itself.

[Dreadnaught]

No, it's not given to you on the forms. The forms just tell you what the payroll deductions were, and what the expected checks amount will be. There is no line saying "if you retire at age 65, your contributions will be used up in the first two years of drawing benefits".

I don't think I've ever called you crazy for talking about state budget deficits.

Yes, the info is on the form. You don't need a sentence there to calculate out that the column on the right will eventually exceed the column on the left. Though it would be nice, wouldn't it?

There would be no tax refund. Not to them and not to you. The money is already spent. And they can't opt out (I already tried that, it's considered unconstitutional, heh). But the hilarious part is....you can't support them as needed, unless you make about a million a year, and don't spend a dime on yourself. Well, unless they die before they're in they're 70s and have no health problems along the way.

If you or they had to pay full price for even routine meds, tests and checkups, including dental and vision, that would cost about $20,000/ year if they're relatively healthy. Long term care is not affordable OOP and insurance isn't much help either. Forget it if they get cancer, fall and break a hip, have an autoimmune disorder like MS or Parkinsons, Alzheimers or Lewes Bodies dementia. So yeah it's a pyramid scheme. And you're at the bottom of the heap. Who're you gonna dump off first.....?

Yes, we have a problem in this country with medical costs and the government is making it worse by subsidizing everything. How is this related to Greece?

[Hazir]

I don't think I've ever called you crazy for talking about state budget deficits.

Yes, the info is on the form. You don't need a sentence there to calculate out that the column on the right will eventually exceed the column on the left. Though it would be nice, wouldn't it?



Yes, we have a problem in this country with medical costs and the government is making it worse by subsidizing everything. How is this related to Greece?

The only link I can see is that Greece has made the risks of the lend-lend-lend system more visible.

[RandBlade]

It wasn't my view so much as the reality that changed; by not acting for too long in a convincing way (by the EMU) the Greek situation got out of hand altogether. I couldn't imagine the leaders of Germany being stupid enough to fire up rhetoric against a rescue package for Greece, where mere doubt about that package materializing pushed us from a potential crisis into a real crisis.

Germany is a democracy and German taxpayers/voters are being asked to bail out profligate Greeks who won't fix their own mess and have better welfare etc than the Germans do. The German electorate sees it as unfair and so the German opposition parties can easily make hay over this and the German government is caught between a rock and a hard place.

This was always the biggest problem with a single economic currency: Having economic union without political union. If Greece was a part of Germany it wouldn't be such an issue, they'd have the same cuts etc the Germans have already had to make. But its not.

Plus if Germany had too easily bailed out Greece then what pressure would that have put on the other PIGS governments? Piss off your voters with tough austerity packages, or piss of the Germans and soak more money off them. Any good socialist would know what to do then, and the Germans have to fork out even more.

The government of each nation has to deal with democratic electorate of each nation, but the economic situation doesn't mesh with that. Hence your discovered "stupidity" of the Germans. There was no way for them to win out of this.

-----------

Interestingly from a British perspective the Greek crisis has killed dead any lingering chance of joining the euro. A lot of people are looking at that whole mess and thinking "their but for the grace of God". One of the surprising moments of last nights final debate was when Cameron attacked Clegg's support as recently as a few months ago of joining the euro and saying how good it was now that we're not so we're not in the same situation as Greece/having to bail out Greece. Clegg was left stammering before saying he didn't support Britain joining the euro, a complete 180.

[CitizenCain]

Right. Then all those threads I've started in the past, a long time ago at the other place, about canaries in coal mines, debt, entitlements, food security, health care, insurance, emergencies, elegant gaussian algorithms, globalism, revolutions, were really just me talking to myself.

Looks like it, since you've obviously managed to avoid absorbing any of the solid, libertarian conclusions given to you in those threads. All that complaining about impending, government-imposed doom... and you still manage to lean middle-left. Boggles the mind, truly.

You guys used to love to call me a pessimist, a chicken little, reactionary. Even stupid, uninformed, or drunk.

If you can find a better explanation for how you can still support our government and/or governmental structure, given all the complaining and impending-disaster talk you do, I'm certainly all ears.

I have never endorsed nonsensical income redistribution.

Dude, you're an admitted socialist. "Nonsensical income distribution" is practically all you endorse.

A lot of [British] people are looking at that whole mess and thinking "their but for the grace of God".

You know, it fascinates me how the bulk of the British, who invented the language, can be so incredibly lousy when it comes to actually using the language.

[Nessus]

Dude, you're an admitted socialist. "Nonsensical income distribution" is practically all you endorse.

It's not socialism's fault retarded Murikans can't make it work worth spit

[CitizenCain]

Yeah, yeah.

Been exercising your basic human rights this year? And if so, where *did* you vacation? Do tell, and please share your vacation basic human rights pictures with us.

[Nessus]

Italy isn't the hegemon of Europe, ding-dong

[CitizenCain]

So that's a "no" to being able to exercise your basic human rights so far this year?

Too bad. You should write your congressman and complain - get some of that totally sensible socialist wealth redistribution heading your way!

[Nessus]

I have explained to you, several times in fact, how much my life has been enriched by socialist wealth redistribution, and how people like me tend to end up sucking dick for crack in the glory of the United States of Murika. You will have to excuse me if your hilarious hyperbole doesn't quite manage to move or amuse me.

[Hazir]

Germany is a democracy and German taxpayers/voters are being asked to bail out profligate Greeks who won't fix their own mess and have better welfare etc than the Germans do. The German electorate sees it as unfair and so the German opposition parties can easily make hay over this and the German government is caught between a rock and a hard place.

Maybe so, but if people think and say stupid things a leader shouldn't reinforce the stupidity, especially if that leader understands that the ones who are going to be hurt most are the people whose interests he's supposed to protect.

This was always the biggest problem with a single economic currency: Having economic union without political union. If Greece was a part of Germany it wouldn't be such an issue, they'd have the same cuts etc the Germans have already had to make. But its not.

II wouldn't be so certain of that any longer. To me it seems no coincidence that the Greeks jacked up their retirement age to the exact number the Germans are raising it to.

Plus if Germany had too easily bailed out Greece then what pressure would that have put on the other PIGS governments? Piss off your voters with tough austerity packages, or piss of the Germans and soak more money off them. Any good socialist would know what to do then, and the Germans have to fork out even more.

Putting harsh conditions on a clear aid-package would have done the trick. As things were it was unclear conditions for a package that might happen. And the market reacted to that opaqueness.

The government of each nation has to deal with democratic electorate of each nation, but the economic situation doesn't mesh with that. Hence your discovered "stupidity" of the Germans. There was no way for them to win out of this.

There was; harsh conditions for a clear guarantee.

-----------

Interestingly from a British perspective the Greek crisis has killed dead any lingering chance of joining the euro. A lot of people are looking at that whole mess and thinking "their but for the grace of God". One of the surprising moments of last nights final debate was when Cameron attacked Clegg's support as recently as a few months ago of joining the euro and saying how good it was now that we're not so we're not in the same situation as Greece/having to bail out Greece. Clegg was left stammering before saying he didn't support Britain joining the euro, a complete 180.

Yeah well, that the majority of Brits are batfuck crazy when thinking about the euro is a fact. That they are even too stupid to realise that with your financial problems and your independent currency you are as much at risk as the Greeks are with none of the protection their EMU membership offers also doesn't surprise me. Any sane person would have understood that the UK would be in a much better situation if it had the euro for its currency.

Enjoying your 'devalued' currency much by the way?