Originally Posted by Loki
. . .
I don't give a shit.
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
I said what I said as its true
Lefties don't care about those who work hard and improve their lot and punish them with ever-increasing taxation.
The second person probably paid for the first his entire life too, while the first did naughtAnd let's not forget that righties created the system of ridiculously and unnecessarily expensive and shoddy healthcare you have over there
In the meantime the second poor person probably enjoyed a better life than the first, right up until his nursing home admission. So his work was not for naught
A service we have no choice over.
That's bullshit pure and simple. If you "opt-out" of paying taxes you'll be sent to prison so don't talk crap. Try declaring yourself independent and see what the government does.Oh for...
...you can opt out of taxes by opting out of society.
Also not true, paper money precedes government-backed paper money. Paper money in the UK is a promisory note printed by banks, in England and Wales its only by the government-backed Bank of England but that's only because the government decided hundreds of years ago to create the Bank of England and to prevent private banks from printing their own money (which they used to). In Scotland and Northern Ireland private banks still issue their own money.In order to have that money in the first place you have to have somehow participated in a society run by a government. That money itself also only has value because of the existence and recognition of its backing government.
Do you work hard Rand?
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
Yes, very.
Well, I care about you.
That was easy enough.
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
LOL
So what politically do you believe in through which that comes through?
It's not true, so why do you insist on continuing your lying? Do you think that just because you're not Lewk you're exempt from the laws against lying your ass off?I said what I said as its true
Lefties don't care about those who work hard and improve their lot
Since we were talking about the US, probably not true either. Probably neither of them paid income taxes and probably instead benefited from tax exemptions.The second person probably paid for the first his entire life too, while the first did naught
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Not a clue what you're asking here. But to pre-empt, since I think I get where you're tunneling at, I don't think I'll be able to state my political views in the same one sentenced bullshit blanket statement like you did, I'm a little more pragmatic than that. The same reason I'm thinking you'd give that single mother with 4 little darling baby children a little more leeway than, for instance a Warren Buffet. We're both socialist, we're both capitalists, what you're in essence are bitching about is I have my slider slightly to the left of yours while still believing in the exact same principles you do. I'm not saying you don't give a shit about welfare moms, I'd like you to not tell me I don't give a shit about successful people or people who work hard.
Some I indeed do not give a shit about, an example being those who worked hard to convince people who couldn't really pay for it still to accept that credit and then bet against them and made a bunch, others I actually admire. And it may surprise you but most "lefties" share that sentiment. heck, I'd wager many a "rightie" would too.
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
None of which keeps taxation from being a taking and not a voluntary exchange.Oh for...
...you can opt out of taxes by opting out of society. In order to have that money in the first place you have to have somehow participated in a society run by a government. That money itself also only has value because of the existence and recognition of its backing government.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
You volunatrily live here I assume. Or does this government keep you here against your will?
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Don't be ridiculous.
You do have a choice. It just so happens to be a choice that you aren't willing to make, but you still have it.
The homeless and destitute don't pay taxes. Thats pretty damn close to opting out of society and negating most benefits you receive from the government, although you still will receive protection via the police, military and legal system.That's bullshit pure and simple. If you "opt-out" of paying taxes you'll be sent to prison so don't talk crap. Try declaring yourself independent and see what the government does.
How do you get money from these banks that aren't back by the government?Also not true, paper money precedes government-backed paper money. Paper money in the UK is a promisory note printed by banks, in England and Wales its only by the government-backed Bank of England but that's only because the government decided hundreds of years ago to create the Bank of England and to prevent private banks from printing their own money (which they used to). In Scotland and Northern Ireland private banks still issue their own money.
It is a voluntary exchange. You've used a service, so you pay for it. What you're trying to tell me is equivalent to if I walked into a shop, used their services, I should be free to leave and decide whether or not I should give them my money, regardless of how much of their time and resources I've used, because otherwise if they ask me for money in return, which I must pay them, I did not engage in a voluntary exchange? Are you mad? No one is forcing you to make money, no one is forcing you to have and own property, etc., you choose to do so because the alternative is not something you want. No one is even forcing you to participate in society, but again you obviously feel what you currently have is better than the alternative.
You seem horrifically entitled to the resources and time that other people have necessarily paid to ensure society keeps running smoothly, but don't seem to want to pay in yourself, or even seem to have little grasp on how different things would be without a functioning government. Very likely you would be dead. Other people's tax dollars have ensured that you are not.
. . .
No, it's not. You're forced to accept the service, and then you're forced to pay for it. The fact that the service might benefit you is irrelevant. The equivalent would be you walking into a store, being forced to buy products the store wants you to buy, and then be forced to pay the store how much it wants to get paid.
Hope is the denial of reality
Stop conflating income taxes with sales taxes.
Illusions' point still stands----you can opt out of paying taxes completely, if you choose. It would take a concerted effort, but it can be done.
Some of the older "hippie" communes did that quite easily, by declaring themselves a non-profit farm, or a religious group, or even a charity. They owned land but didn't pay property tax. They grew their own food and sold the surplus, but charged no sales tax. They weren't technically employing anyone, so they paid no FICA. They didn't buy much that had a sales tax, either. Mostly bartering and being a self-contained and self-sustained community, they didn't pay taxes at all.
The type of taxes is irrelevant. You really need to learn to pay more attention to the main argument instead of the illustrative specifics.
And someone seeking an abortion can go to Canada even if abortion is illegal in the US, yet I don't see anyone here making that argument. Stop stooping to intellectual dishonesty by adopting ridiculous standards for views you disagree with.
Hope is the denial of reality
Of course not. From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs? Of course communism doesn't work because of that very thing that liberals find so disdainful... incentives. A society that gives everyone the same outcome for unequal efforts of work is terrible. It rewards the lazy and punishes the worthy.
It's relevant. Buying things with a sales or VAT tax are elective and voluntary exchanges. If you don't want to pay a tax on dividends, earned interest, or capital gains.....you don't have to own stocks or even an interest bearing savings account. If you don't want to pay property tax, don't buy land or a house, or incorporate as a non-profit or religious entity. If you don't want to pay a toll-road fee (another word for tax), don't drive on a toll road.
Income taxes are different. Even if you earn a pittance and owe no taxes, if your employer recorded your SS # as an employee, you're required to file an IRS W-2 form.
You really need to keep topics in their designated threads. This has nothing to do with abortion, but if you want to comment on that, there's more than one thread discussing abortion.And someone seeking an abortion can go to Canada even if abortion is illegal in the US, yet I don't see anyone here making that argument. Stop stooping to intellectual dishonesty by adopting ridiculous standards for views you disagree with.
The homeless and destitute do not pay taxes, so obviously there is a way to decline these governmental services so you no longer have to pay for them. Again, you are not being forced into anything, you just don't want to choose the alternative, because what you currently have is better. What do you think the base cost of society is in time and resources? Is it above zero? If it is, and you wish to participate, or have participated in that society, you should pay for its costs. If you are debating that you pay too much for additional services you do not want, that is fine, but exclaiming that taxes overall are not a voluntary exchange, some form of theft, punishment, or forced suffering is silly and overly dramatic. Again, you have a choice, you can become an outcast of society, just because its a choice you don't want to make, or that you find unpalatable does not nullify its existence as an option.
. . .
And once again, it's irrelevant whether taxes help or not. The whole point is that people are forced to pay them; in fact, if all the tax revenue went into the pockets of a handful of people (like in Egypt), you'd still have to pay them. I don't see why you keep on conflating the two issues.
How is any of this relevant to the points I made? Read the actual post.
Hope is the denial of reality
You have closeted lib'rul SSSocialistic tendencies, and won't even admit it.
Tell me, how can children or young people with cancer possibly meet your standards of working for their worth? They shouldn't have our medical efforts, because they haven't been incentivized? Are they being rewarded for being lazy just to get their chemo?
And once again, it's irrelevant whether taxes help or not. The whole point is that people are forced to pay them; in fact, if all the tax revenue went into the pockets of a handful of people (like in Egypt), you'd still have to pay them. I don't see why you keep on conflating the two issues.
How is any of this relevant to the points I made? Read the actual post.I wasn't just replying to you, but anyone arguing about taxes being a voluntary payment, or something forced from them.
Again, Illusions has a valid point. There are plenty of ways you can opt out of any and all taxes, you just don't like the kind of lifestyle that would entail. It's still your choice.
And it's your choice to have sex. Therefore, a ban on abortion doesn't affect your rights.
Hope is the denial of reality
If I want electricity from the electric company I have no choice but to pay them also. Why are you not attacking them for their heinous actions of forcing suffering on people, or forcing people to give them money, or claiming they engage in theft? Right, you don't because that would be ridiculous, because claiming that I'm entitled to their services, in this case providing me with electricity, is silly. It costs resources and time to provide me with electricity, its not free. However apparently to yourself and Rand it isn't ridiculous to feel entitled to the services the government provides, the most base being providing you with a stable society to live in, what is ridiculous is how you're expected to pay for it.
You're going to have to explain how these two are equivalent. Also I'm not saying go to Canada, there are valid options where you don't have to pay taxes and the government isn't going to come and get you, or punish you for it.Again, this is equivalent to saying that if abortion is banned, people can refrain from having sex, and therefore wouldn't be affected by the ban (or have sex and go to Canada if pregnant).
Well, for starters, none of us posting here live in some despotic regime, or a military junta like in parts of Africa, so arguably when we pay taxes its going in part towards a functioning society, and not just wholly lining someone's pockets. Also, again, the reason people are paying for them is because they live in a functioning society, and choose to continue living in one. Were you roused by savage blows today? Your house taken by a band of traveling nomads? Your currency still has value? If you were roused by savage blows, have the availability of people to ensure it doesn't happen again and that the offenders are taken care of? Congratulations, you're enjoying some of the fruits of a functioning society, however, apparently the government is forcibly taking money away from you for something you don't value.And once again, it's irrelevant whether taxes help or not. The whole point is that people are forced to pay them; in fact, if all the tax revenue went into the pockets of a handful of people (like in Egypt), you'd still have to pay them. I don't see why you keep on conflating the two issues.
. . .
I don't think anyone benefits from adopting a lewkowskian view of "choice"...
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
No. According to your posts, tax isn't a choice, but something forced. You're lumping all taxes in one big lump, which is disingenuous. Just as it is to bring sex and abortion into the discussion.
So we abolish taxes tomorrow. How long do you think the world governments keep on trucking before they falter and society collapses. It must be forever because keeping a society running is free. If you agree its not, why do you feel that you should enjoy its benefits without having to pay for it, or why, give me some concrete example, where you are actually forced to participate. You're coming up with some bizarro logic whereby if a store offered Chocolate, Vanilla, and Strawberry ice cream for $1, or no ice cream for $0, that they're somehow forcing you to pay them because not having ice cream isn't a choice because you really fucking love ice cream. The store is somehow separating you from your your ice cream and forcing you to pay for access to it.
. . .
A) One's ability to survive is far less affected by electricity than it is by one's ability to generate income. Living without electricity is inconvenient. Living without a job is practically impossible.
B) Monopolies is bad, and there's an element of coercion in being able to buy something from only one seller.
But to just step back, your argument is idiotic. It's premised on the fact that people somehow have a choice to not make money, which means either finding another country to move to (though nearly all have taxes) or to not work. Neither is a choice we can expect reasonable men to make. We can use your logic to justify just about any heinous act imaginable; after all, the victim could probably have avoided it if they went far enough (perhaps killing themselves to deprive someone else the ability to do so).
For the last time, this is irrelevant to the question of whether taxation is coercion. You cannot use a utilitarian argument to prove whether an act is coercive or not.
Hope is the denial of reality
No one is forcing you to be alive? You can't not get the advantages of policed streets, or the existence of hospitals. You can't choose to forgo getting educated *truancy is illegal, and if parents actually tried to keep their kids from getting an education, social services would take them away* You can't opt out of society in any real way. You "used a service" the instant your birth certificate was created, which is certainly not something you had or ever would have a choice about. Taxation is a taking. It doesn't matter if you get something in return for it, it is not a free exchange of services. Your concept has armed robbery as an exchange because the victim is getting the assurance that he/she will be able to go on their way without fear after giving their attacker something. You can't construct blackmail or extortion in a space that's separate from taxation the way you're trying to interpret taxation. Actually, extortion and taxation have a number of parallels in their basic structures.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
I parrot bullshit and you go "of course not".
Christ you're dense.
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
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