Cain misses one point. Barclays guarantee me against fraud on the chip and pin card so it doesn't matter.
Cain misses one point. Barclays guarantee me against fraud on the chip and pin card so it doesn't matter.
Yeah, my ex had that too. Then she was skimmed, and three bank used one of a few hundred loopholes, and she got nothing back.
Nothing is completely secure. The chip and pin system may have been updated to make it more difficult to use a fake terminal in the middle:
http://translate.google.com/translat...%26prmd%3DivnsOn 11 February 2010, a group of computer scientists from the University of Cambridge, an effective man-in-the-middle attack against a POS terminal in the Cambridge public house cafeteria, which was certified to British Standard Chip Authentication Program (CAP). The attack allows it to confirm the PIN by entering any transaction. [3] This attack pushed the wrong card into the terminal which is connected to a real card. The message of the terminal to the smart card that contains the PIN is to be tested, and intercepted with a message "PIN OK" answers. The terminal thus believes that the correct PIN was entered, while the card is assumed that was paid for with a signature. This attack works because the response message must not be secured cryptographically. In Germany, the attack only when using the old German chip operating system SECCOS v5 work for which the transitional period has now expired. According to CCC, Germany is therefore not affected by the problem. [4]
The EMV specification "Common Payment Application Specification" [5] of 2005 provides in section "15.5.3.4 Terminal Offline PIN OK Check Erroneously Consider" in case of wrongly assumed positive terminal of the PIN-verification mandatory before an exam. The same chapter is also a chapter on "Erroneously Consider 5.2.5.5.3 Terminal Offline PIN OK Check" in the German CCC specification "Interface Specifications for the ICC SECCOS - EMI Commands" in 2007.
Is technically under the command VERIFY PIN at 1st GENERATE APPLICATION Cryptogram CDOL1 at the bit for "PIN verification performed by ICC" on the Cardholder Verification Method Results (9F34) from the terminal to the card transferred. The board must consider this and then demand that has gone online or the transaction is aborted. At least here, therefore, the hack would have to fail in the UK.
Without proper authorization, CC may certainly be able to withdraw 1 EUR, but probably not 1000 EUR. Moreover, the onus is on the bank to prove that the cardholder did, in fact, buy whatever it is he claims the thieves bought using his card.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
When the latest credit card bill was passed someone important mentioned how Americans once again have access to credit to buy daily essentials, and the main response I saw from over the pond was "americans need credit for that?"Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
I haven't used a credit card for daily life since I finally managed to pay them off earlier this year. I have a bank debit card, and a Target debit card (5% off, w00t!). Brandy often enough gets paid in cash, so that covers most things. I still carry my discover card with me for extremely large purchases; acts like a buffer in case something goes wrong, plus the cash back, and it keeps my credit active.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
I never understood why people don't charge everything. Literally every possible thing I can pay with a credit card that's more than $5 I charge - utility bills, groceries, entertainment/dining, everything. As far as I'm concerned, it's free money - I get about an average of 1.5-2% cash back on my charges (hoping to boost that soon with a different credit card for groceries), which works out to a substantial sum of money every month - maybe $40-50, since my wife's travel expenses all get paid by us and then reimbursed by the company. I'm not planning on walking away from $500-600/year in free money and I don't understand why anyone would - it's far more money than I make in interest every year. If you pay your bill in full every month, there's literally no downside. Only thing I don't use my credit card for is rent (they charge a 'convenience fee' for charging that wipes out the cash back) and for personal overseas purchases (I don't currently have a Capital One card, so I have those pesky foreign transaction fees).
Assuming one has a high enough credit limit (so charging large amounts every month won't raise your credit utilization unnecessarily), there's no reason not to charge everything as long as there's no penalty associated with it. I think for a lot of Americans, using credit cards is not about needing a floating line of credit to pay for basic necessities, but a matter of convenience and rewards. I've never carried a revolving balance, but I use my credit cards religiously. In fact, I pretty much never use cash.
Debit cards (which can be used as credit cards for online purchases and such) work the same.
Though there is a certain limiting value to having cash. As in, you won't spend yourself into a frenzy if you have a set amount of cash in your wallet that has to last a certain amount of time.
I have also used my debit card without the PIN (just had to sign), in Dublin. BTW over here you often need a PIN with your credit card too.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
Was that directed at me? Debit card rewards are rarely as good as credit card rewards - trust me, I've checked. In fact, many banks have shut down their rewards programs for debit.
I never understood this logic. To me, cash evaporates very easily - it's spent on small useless stuff I'd never pay for with a credit card. Also, that assumes that the owner of the credit card doesn't have any self control on their spending. I don't get the concept of charging something that you simply don't have money for.Though there is a certain limiting value to having cash. As in, you won't spend yourself into a frenzy if you have a set amount of cash in your wallet that has to last a certain amount of time.
Sounds like Cain needs to find a credit unionfee for using a debit card as debit? jesus. My place offers prizes for running debit as credit.
That convenience charge is priced into everything. Its a lot easier to haggle on prices when you pay with cash, and you can usually drop it a fair bit lower than the 2% cash back. One reason I love the Target debit card. They get my purchasing habits and a way around higher transaction fees, and I get 5% off, on the spot, without needing to haggle.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
I don't believe in card rewards at all. Everyone says they are too smart to be nudged into making more purchases, but ultimately it's a gimmick. Personal finance benefits from simplicity, and rewards cards undercuts that as people start rationalizing money spent on rewards cards.
OG: Uh... what everyday purchases do you haggle on? My main expenses are rent, utilities, groceries, the occasional meal out, hotels, and airfare. As for the convenience charge being priced in, that's true, but it's the same price for me as for someone paying in cash, so they're effectively not taking advantage of the opportunity to defray the cost. I'm paying the same price either way.
I also never get store-specific credit/debit cards, but that's generally because I don't shop at any one store enough for it to be worth the ding on my credit history (lowering my average age of credit) or having a dozen credit cards in my wallet. I have two, which might increase to 3 if I decide it's worth the hassle. 5% is nice, but it's kinda stupid if it only works for one store - unless the vast majority of your purchases are at said store.
Dread: I don't get that reasoning. I'm not a particularly price-sensitive grocery shopper, and that's really the only place where my spending has choices. Everything else is pretty much locked in (bills, required travel I'm already getting at the cheapest possible, etc.). If was regularly buying large, expensive one-off items, I'd see your point... but since I don't, why not take the free money? I already do all of my saving automatically, so my budget available for paying off big unnecessary purchases is pretty tight.
OK, thanks for that. If you develop any semblance of integrity or intellectual honesty between now and my next trip over to Germany, let me know and I'll be happy to drain your account for you.
I don't miss the point, so much as I don't care - the claim was that Chip+PIN cards are "advanced" security make the system more secure, but it's not the case. That your banking institutions are willing to cover fraud and theft due to the fact that their system is just security theater is a good thing (we have that over here too, it would seem that easy access to credit for everyone makes the banks more money than the insecure nature of this approach costs in fraud), but that's not what I was concerned with.
Well, not quite. The counter-measures developed after that academic proof of concept made it harder to impersonate a real card (with a fake one and fake terminal relaying data to it), but they didn't cover all implementations of that basic attack type (nor could they, at least not cheaply enough to keep the system profitable).
Well, if Khen (or whomever) wants to get his money back by committing insurance fraud, that's fine, but it's a separate matter to whether or not Chip+PIN card systems can be compromised with minimal effort and cheap hardware.
In a lot of cases, for me, my privacy is well worth forgoing a few bucks cash back. Not to mention cash makes it easier to limit your purchases, as well as being universally accepted, whereas plastic is not a viable option in all cases.
Yeah, I *had* a credit union, until they opened membership up to basically everyone, and subsequently became a little worse than my bank.Sounds like Cain needs to find a credit unionSo now I just use the bank, and probably won't get around to finding a proper credit union until my bank pisses me off.
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
I'm supporting a family of 5, so my everyday expenses may be a little different than yours but:
water is a no go, city run shared costs. If I don't pay, someone else has to.
power is touch and go. you build up a history, call in during financial hardship. They will offer a discount in order to not deal with the neighborhood service centers which help people with power bills. Haven't had to deal with this for a few years.
cable is the easiest. they are bleeding so bad.
cell phone. I currently get 12% off by tying my plan through a county rep and using direct withdraw with Easypay.
Car. 0% 6 year financing with direct withdrawal. Thats with a 07, before the shit totally hit the fan.
The day to day stuff is a lot easier to haggle at smaller joints, especially with the cash vs plastic angle. Thrift and consignment shops for toys and work clothes. Although mall joints have been showing more freedom to haggle, especially during season changes. Like now for example, great time for a deal on summer items since winter is already getting stocked.
Food works best with dented goods, even WalMart caves when selling dented stuff. All the way down to ripped packages on non-parishables, like freaking toilet paper.
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I live within walking distance to a WalMart and Target, both Supers. I could easily go about my life and only shop at one or the other. Always favored Target over WalMart, but the 5% is a deal sealer.
Wallet is bi-fold. 6 slots, with 6 cards. License, Discover, debit, target, insurance, and insurance debit. Barely thicker than a pen topper. Don't even need to carry the discover on a regular basis, but I have to put something there.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
My GF uses her rewards card to pay for books she needs for classes, her cellphone bill, her LIRR ticket, and her MTA Metrocard, all things she has to pay for on a monthly basis. So the rewards act as cash back on things which she is going to purchase that month no matter what.
. . .
I don't waste my time with people who are pathologically incapable of explaining things they say that are simple. I note that as of yet, you still failed to provide any semblance of details that make sense.
I already told Cain that this particular attack simply is not possible anymore. And he consistently fails provide any examples, details or procedures as to what his "attack" might entail.
Furthermore, he also invents technology which let's him read a chip which does not have an interface capable of that.
Basically, he's lying and makes himself out to be the great expert while in reality he's a sad person with a delusion of grandeur. I mean, what else would you call a guy who simply does not provide any information no matter how often you ask him? Not even the tiniest detail other than "some wires and some software"? I mean, even McGuyver was more credible...
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Yes, we know Khen. You don't want my money because I'm full of hot air. Now shut up, piss off and let the adults have a discussion that doesn't involve you being an asshole to everyone for no reason.
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
Ditto.
I don't get cashback, but I do spend an average of £1500-£2500 a month on my card for the last six months. A lot of business expenses go on my card then I claim the money back. As you get upto 7 weeks to pay the money back interest free (last month plus this month) I'm typically carrying at any stage an average of £3000 of "credit".
If I put that £3000 that's in my debit account ready to pay off the credit card in an instant-access savings account at say 3% APR then that's about £90 in interest per annum.
Do want to get a cashback card though.
PS Went through a period a few months ago where I was theoretically in debt but never got charged for it. Got a few very large bills all at the same time, her engagement ring, my new Laptop etc, etc - I bought them all at the same time and didn't actually have the cash to pay for all at once. Rather than sitting with thousands in my debit account while oweing thousands on my credit, I ran my debit account down to just a few hundred while owing thousands on my credit card each month - yet paid off in full each month if that makes sense. So always owing only new expenditures. Eventually cleared that off in full so my accounts now positive by the same I owe again but through that period I never missed a payment on anything, never paid a penny of interest. I was able to on very tight months manipulate it by making big business expenditures on the first day of the new credit card statement (7 weeks before payment due then), put in the receipt claim the same day (so I had the cash 2 days later in my account) and using that money to pay off my bills 7 weeks before I'd then have to pay it off. Not ideal, but avoided any charges.
Question: Is there any reason I couldn't get a credit card with a cash back percentage, use it to pay monthly on things like my student loans, pay off the credit card immediately using the money I would have spent that month on paying off student loans, then use the accumulated cash back from that month to help pay down said student loans next month?
For instance:
I have to make a $100 monthly payment to Bank X for Student Loans. I pay it using a cash back credit card. I then immediately pay off the $100 balance on the credit card. Next month I do the same thing again, but also pay an additional $X where X is the cash back from the previous month.
. . .
cash back usually doesn't work that way. For my discover card you can only cash out after you rack up $50. Not exactly something I do every month.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Other than that, there's nothing to stop Illusions from using cash back to pay off student loans quicker, but it sounds like a whole hell of a lot of effort to save a few bucks in interest every year. Essentially, paying down his student loans an extra ~2% in a given period is only going to be worthwhile if he's got millions of dollars in student loans... or if his student loans charged 30% APR interest like a credit card, I suppose.
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
Don't know about Stateside, but a Credit Card can't normally be used to pay off other loans without incurring charges here - and the charges would exceed any benefits. Using your card is only normally charge-free on purchases, not on more cash-related issues.
For most people, there is a psychological pull to spend that extra dollar because of rewards. Not just for bid things, but for everyday things. People rationalize buying an extra bunch of bananas because, well, it's marginally within your budget and it'll get you some more reward points so why not.
While stuck indoors for the hurricane, I recently sat down with my dad to evaluate the return he's gotten on about three decades of American Airlines points with a credit card. Even including almost two dozen free AA flights, his return basically evened out to .03%. He never had a credit card balance at all, but over the years I certainly saw him justify a random purchase with, "Well, I get points anyway so why not."
I don't know how it works in the UK, but it's definitely tough to get a good one here. Used to be you could get 5% cash back on every purchase - now, you're lucky if you average 2%. It's often actually theoretically better to get one of the more complicated cards, since they have a slightly better rate of return than cashback, but most people don't use the card to its theoretical maximum rewards anyhow, so I find cash back is better than other rewards/points systems.
In principle you could, but most student loans don't allow credit transactions, but rather direct transfer from a bank account. I've found that only some monthly expenses can be charged - i.e. Netflix and Comcast allow charging, but oftentimes electric/gas don't. Some cards don't require a minimum reward to be sent in - for example, Penfed applies the size of the cash back rewards to your statement each month.
To be honest, I don't really pay off my student loans faster than needed anyways since the rate is low enough when combined with the tax benefits that it grows slower than inflation.
Well, the point is that Cain alleges that any and all banking schemes, be that with a chip or otherwise, can be manipulated. I ask him how he's going to do that. He says that he wants to show me. I ask him that I want to know the principle behind his method. He says that asking for the principle shows that I don't understand anything.
At this point any "discussion" with Cain is essentially useless because he claims that I don't know anything without bringing any evidence, facts or actually anything else to the table. I mean, I don't expect details - but it should surely be possible to explain the basic process and the particular step vulnerable to an attack?
To top it off, as of yet I have not seen anything which makes it actually look like he knows what he's talking about. Basically, he's only repeating that I don't know anything, is not willing to show me where exactly I am wrong and is also unwilling to substantiate his claims.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
So much for Khen dropping it, huh Wraith?
*[Citation required.]
I mean, it's true and all, what with nothing being 100% secure, but this is just another example of you putting words in my mouth and then ranting about how your massive distortions of my statements are ridiculous. And they are, which is what brought me to the conclusion that you're either lying or incredibly ignorant about security fundamentals. Because if aren't incredibly ignorant of security fundamentals, you'd see in an instant how huge your distortions of my statements are, and if you know what you're doing, you're continually using dishonest wording anyway.
Hence, either a liar or an ignoramus. And given how you continue to misrepresent my words beyond what I can reasonably consider to be out of ignorance, we've arrived at you being both a liar and an ignoramus, as far as I'm concerned. Bravo.
I'm willing to back them up with money, under the "I don't educate people who piss me off for free" principle. Had someone else asked... probably anyone on here, now that I give it a brief thought, I'd have told them for free. Then again, anyone else here isn't constantly belligerent, ill-tempered and arrogant on top of seeping an attitude of entitlement from every post. So sit there until Armageddon claiming I haven't offered proof - I don't care. You're not going to bait me into giving up the answer, no matter how often you repeat your demand.
And again, your questions are evidence of your ignorance on security matters. Anyone who knows anything on the subject would have asked different questions, or figured it out almost instantly, instead of repeating the same irrelevant request over and over.
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
please tell us all how it's done
Khen, close your eyes, this'll only take a moment
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
That's what she said!
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
You honestly think that you will get a straight answer out of him?
Don't expect me to hold my breath.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Oh, I'd happily tell Minx (or anyone else) if they ask and agree to not to let it get back to you. That's not the issue, as I've said repeatedly.
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
Alrighty everyone, are we done now?
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