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Thread: Once or twice?

  1. #91
    well then obviously that'd be an excellent place to start fixing your education in a way that would benefit very many students instead of just the few students loki and tear have intellectual hardons for
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  2. #92
    ps. it's the responsibility of the smart kids to secure their own intellectual stimulation why should we as a society enable them?? i mean they are so smrt

    it's retarded to put so much responsibility and so much blame on disadvantaged kids and do everything possible to boost those who're more than likely to be fine even without the boost

    it's only 'cause CERTAIN CRETINS identify more with those smrt kids

    PSPS. of course it's best to help everyone reach max
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  3. #93
    Dear Aimless,

    You are a fucking moron.

    Sincerely,
    Ominous Gamer

  4. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    ps. it's the responsibility of the smart kids to secure their own intellectual stimulation why should we as a society enable them?? i mean they are so smrt
    Because we all know that smart kids are all super motivated.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    well then obviously that'd be an excellent place to start fixing your education in a way that would benefit very many students instead of just the few students loki and tear have intellectual hardons for
    Judging Books by Their Covers



    After the war, physicists were often asked to go to Washington and give
    advice to various sections of the government, especially the military. What
    happened, I suppose, is that since the scientists had made these bombs that
    were so important, the military felt we were useful for something.
    Once I was asked to serve on a committee which was to evaluate various
    weapons for the army, and I wrote a letter back which explained that I was
    only a theoretical physicist, and I didn't know anything about weapons for
    the army.
    The army responded that they had found in their experience that
    theoretical physicists were very useful to them in making decisions, so
    would I please reconsider?
    I wrote back again and said I didn't really know anything, and doubted
    I could help them.
    Finally I got a letter from the Secretary of the Army, which proposed a
    compromise: I would come to the first meeting, where I could listen and see
    whether I could make a contribution or not. Then I could decide whether I
    should continue.
    I said I would, of course. What else could I do?
    I went down to Washington and the first thing that I went to was a
    cocktail party to meet everybody. There were generals and other important
    characters from the army, and everybody talked. It was pleasant enough.
    One guy in a uniform came to me and told me that the army was glad that
    physicists were advising the military because it had a lot of problems. One
    of the problems was that tanks use up their fuel very quickly and thus can't
    go very far. So the question was how to refuel them as they're going along.
    Now this guy had the idea that, since the physicists can get energy out of
    uranium, could I work out a way in which we could use silicon dioxide --
    sand, dirt -- as a fuel? If that were possible, then all this tank would
    have to do would be to have a little scoop underneath, and as it goes along,
    it would pick up the dirt and use it for fuel! He thought that was a great
    idea, and that all I had to do was to work out the details. That was the
    kind of problem I thought we would be talking about in the meeting the next
    day.
    I went to the meeting and noticed that some guy who had introduced me
    to all the people at the cocktail party was sitting next to me. He was
    apparently some flunky assigned to be at my side at all times. On my other
    side was some super general I had heard of before.
    At the first session of the meeting they talked about some technical
    matters, and I made a few comments. But later on, near the end of the
    meeting, they began to discuss some problem of logistics, about which I knew
    nothing. It had to do with figuring out how much stuff you should have at
    different places at different times. And although I tried to keep my trap
    shut, when you get into a situation like that, where you're sitting around a
    table with all these "important people" discussing these "important
    problems," you can't keep your mouth shut, even if you know nothing
    whatsoever! So I made some comments in that discussion, too.
    During the next coffee break the guy who had been assigned to shepherd
    me around said, "I was very impressed by the things you said during the
    discussion. They certainly were an important contribution."
    I stopped and thought about my "contribution" to the logistics problem,
    and realized that a man like the guy who orders the stuff for Christmas at
    Macy's would be better able to figure out how to handle problems like that
    than I. So I concluded: a) if I had made an important contribution, it was
    sheer luck; b) anybody else could have done as well, but most people could
    have done better, and c) this flattery should wake me up to the fact that I
    am not capable of contributing much.
    Right after that they decided, in the meeting, that they could do
    better discussing the organization of scientific research (such as, should
    scientific development be under the Corps of Engineers or the Quartermaster
    Division?) than specific technical matters. I knew that if there was to be
    any hope of my making a real contribution, it would be only on some specific
    technical matter, and surely not on how to organize research in the army.
    Until then I didn't let on any of my feelings about the situation to
    the chairman of the meeting -- the big shot who had invited me in the first
    place. As we were packing our bags to leave, he said to me, all smiles,
    "You'll be joining us, then, for the next meeting..."
    "No, I won't." I could see his face change suddenly. He was very
    surprised that I would say no, after making those "contributions."
    In the early sixties, a lot of my friends were still giving advice to
    the government. Meanwhile, I was having no feeling of social responsibility
    and resisting, as much as possible, offers to go to Washington, which took a
    certain amount of courage in those times.

    I was giving a series of freshman physics lectures at that time, and
    after one of them, Tom Harvey, who assisted me in putting on the
    demonstrations, said, "You oughta see what's happening to mathematics in
    schoolbooks! My daughter comes home with a lot of crazy stuff!"
    I didn't pay much attention to what he said.
    But the next day I got a telephone call from a pretty famous lawyer
    here in Pasadena, Mr. Norris, who was at that time on the State Board of
    Education. He asked me if I would serve on the State Curriculum Commission,
    which had to choose the new schoolbooks for the state of California. You
    see, the state had a law that all of the schoolbooks used by all of the kids
    in all of the public schools have to be chosen by the State Board of
    Education, so they have a committee to look over the books and to give them
    advice on which books to take.
    It happened that a lot of the books were on a new method of teaching
    arithmetic that they called "new math," and since usually the only people to
    look at the books were schoolteachers or administrators in education, they
    thought it would be a good idea to have somebody who uses mathematics
    scientifically, who knows what the end product is and what we're trying to
    teach it for, to help in the evaluation of the schoolbooks.
    I must have had, by this time, a guilty feeling about not cooperating
    with the government, because I agreed to get on this committee.
    Immediately I began getting letters and telephone calls from book
    publishers. They said things like, "We're very glad to hear you're on the
    committee because we really wanted a scientific guy..." and "It's wonderful
    to have a scientist on the committee, because our books are scientifically
    oriented..." But they also said things like, "We'd like to explain to you
    what our book is about..." and "We'll be very glad to help you in any way we
    can to judge our books..." That seemed to me kind of crazy. I'm an objective
    scientist, and it seemed to me that since the only thing the kids in school
    are going to get is the books (and the teachers get the teacher's manual,
    which I would also get), any extra explanation from the company was a
    distortion. So I didn't want to speak to any of the publishers and always
    replied, "You don't have to explain; I'm sure the books will speak for
    themselves."
    I represented a certain district, which comprised most of the Los
    Angeles area except for the city of Los Angeles, which was represented by a
    very nice lady from the L.A. school system named Mrs. Whitehouse. Mr. Norris
    suggested that I meet her and find out what the committee did and how it
    worked.
    Mrs. Whitehouse started out telling me about the stuff they were going
    to talk about in the next meeting (they had already had one meeting; I was
    appointed late). "They're going to talk about the counting numbers." I
    didn't know what that was, but it turned out they were what I used to call
    integers. They had different names for everything, so I had a lot of trouble
    right from the start.
    She told me how the members of the commission normally rated the new
    schoolbooks. They would get a relatively large number of copies of each book
    and would give them to various teachers and administrators in their
    district. Then they would get reports back on what these people thought
    about the books. Since I didn't know a lot of teachers or administrators,
    and since I felt that I could, by reading the books myself, make up my mind
    as to how they looked to me, I chose to read all the books myself. (There
    were some people in my district who had expected to look at the books and
    wanted a chance to give their opinion. Mrs. Whitehouse offered to put their
    reports in with hers so they would feel better and I wouldn't have to worry
    about their complaints. They were satisfied, and I didn't get much trouble.)
    A few days later a guy from the book depository called me up and said,
    "We're ready to send you the books, Mr. Feynman; there are three hundred
    pounds."
    I was overwhelmed.
    "It's all right, Mr. Feynman; we'll get someone to help you read them."
    I couldn't figure out how you do that: you either read them or you
    don't read them. I had a special bookshelf put in my study downstairs (the
    books took up seventeen feet), and began reading all the books that were
    going to be discussed in the next meeting. We were going to start out with
    the elementary schoolbooks.
    It was a pretty big job, and I worked all the time at it down in the
    basement. My wife says that during this period it was like living over a
    volcano. It would be quiet for a while, but then all of a sudden,
    "BLLLLLOOOOOOWWWWW!!!!" -- there would be a big explosion from the "volcano"
    below. The reason was that the books were so lousy. They were false. They
    were hurried. They would try to be rigorous, but they would use examples
    (like automobiles in the street for "sets") which were almost OK, but in
    which there were always some subtleties. The definitions weren't accurate.
    Everything was a little bit ambiguous -- they weren't smart enough to
    understand what was meant by "rigor." They were faking it. They were
    teaching something they didn't understand, and which was, in fact, useless,
    at that time, for the child.
    I understood what they were trying to do. Many people thought we were
    behind the Russians after Sputnik, and some mathematicians were asked to
    give advice on how to teach math by using some of the rather interesting
    modern concepts of mathematics. The purpose was to enhance mathematics for
    the children who found it dull.
    I'll give you an example: They would talk about different bases of
    numbers -- five, six, and so on -- to show the possibilities. That would be
    interesting for a kid who could understand base ten -- something to
    entertain his mind. But what they had turned it into, in these books, was
    that every child had to learn another base! And then the usual horror would
    come: "Translate these numbers, which are written in base seven, to base
    five." Translating from one base to another is an utterly useless thing. If
    you can do it, maybe it's entertaining; if you can't do it, forget it.
    There's no point to it.
    Anyhow, I'm looking at all these books, all these books, and none of
    them has said anything about using arithmetic in science. If there are any
    examples on the use of arithmetic at all (most of the time it's this
    abstract new modern nonsense), they are about things like buying stamps.
    Finally I come to a book that says, "Mathematics is used in science in
    many ways. We will give you an example from astronomy, which is the science
    of stars." I turn the page, and it says, "Red stars have a temperature of
    four thousand degrees, yellow stars have a temperature of five thousand
    degrees..." -- so far, so good. It continues: "Green stars have a
    temperature of seven thousand degrees, blue stars have a temperature of ten
    thousand degrees, and violet stars have a temperature of... (some big
    number)." There are no green or violet stars, but the figures for the others
    are roughly correct. It's vaguely right -- but already, trouble! That's the
    way everything was: Everything was written by somebody who didn't know what
    the hell he was talking about, so it was a little bit wrong, always! And how
    we are going to teach well by using books written by people who don't quite
    understand what they're talking about, I cannot understand. I don't know
    why, but the books are lousy; UNIVERSALLY LOUSY!
    Anyway, I'm happy with this book, because it's the first example of
    applying arithmetic to science. I'm a bit unhappy when I read about the
    stars' temperatures, but I'm not very unhappy because it's more or less
    right -- it's just an example of error. Then comes the list of problems. It
    says, "John and his father go out to look at the stars. John sees two blue
    stars and a red star. His father sees a green star, a violet star, and two
    yellow stars. What is the total temperature of the stars seen by John and
    his father?" -- and I would explode in horror.
    My wife would talk about the volcano downstairs. That's only an
    example: it was perpetually like that. Perpetual absurdity! There's no
    purpose whatsoever in adding the temperature of two stars. Nobody ever does
    that except, maybe, to then take the average temperature of the stars, but
    not to find out the total temperature of all the stars! It was awful! All it
    was was a game to get you to add, and they didn't understand what they were
    talking about. It was like reading sentences with a few typographical
    errors, and then suddenly a whole sentence is written backwards. The
    mathematics was like that. Just hopeless!
    Then I came to my first meeting. The other members had given some kind
    of ratings to some of the books, and they asked me what my ratings were. My
    rating was often different from theirs, and they would ask, "Why did you
    rate that book low?"
    I would say the trouble with that book was this and this on page
    so-and-so -- I had my notes.
    They discovered that I was kind of a goldmine: I would tell them, in
    detail, what was good and bad in all the books; I had a reason for every
    rating.
    I would ask them why they had rated this book so high, and they would
    say, "Let us hear what you thought about such and such a book." I would
    never find out why they rated anything the way they did. Instead, they kept
    asking me what I thought.
    We came to a certain book, part of a set of three supplementary books
    published by the same company, and they asked me what I thought about it.
    I said, "The book depository didn't send me that book, but the other
    two were nice."
    Someone tried repeating the question: "What do you think about that
    book?"
    "I said they didn't send me that one, so I don't have any judgment on
    it."
    The man from the book depository was there, and he said, "Excuse me; I
    can explain that. I didn't send it to you because that book hadn't been
    completed yet. There's a rule that you have to have every entry in by a
    certain time, and the publisher was a few days late with it. So it was sent
    to us with just the covers, and it's blank in between. The company sent a
    note excusing themselves and hoping they could have their set of three books
    considered, even though the third one would be late."
    It turned out that the blank book had a rating by some of the other
    members! They couldn't believe it was blank, because they had a rating. In
    fact, the rating for the missing book was a little bit higher than for the
    two others. The fact that there was nothing in the book had nothing to do
    with the rating.
    I believe the reason for all this is that the system works this way.
    When you give books all over the place to people, they're busy; they're
    careless; they think, "Well, a lot of people are reading this book, so it
    doesn't make any difference." And they put in some kind of number -- some of
    them, at least; not all of them, but some of them. Then when you receive
    your reports, you don't know why this particular book has fewer reports than
    the other books -- that is, perhaps one book has ten, and this one only has
    six people reporting -- so you average the rating of those who reported; you
    don't average the ones who didn't report, so you get a reasonable number.
    This process of averaging all the time misses the fact that there is
    absolutely nothing between the covers of the book!
    I made that theory up because I saw what happened in the curriculum
    commission: For the blank book, only six out of the ten members were
    reporting, whereas with the other books, eight or nine out of the ten were
    reporting. And when they averaged the six, they got as good an average as
    when they averaged with eight or nine. They were very embarrassed to
    discover they were giving ratings to that book, and it gave me a little bit
    more confidence. It turned out the other members of the committee had done a
    lot of work in giving out the books and collecting reports, and had gone to
    sessions in which the book publishers would explain the books before they
    read them; I was the only guy on that commission who read all the books and
    didn't get any information from the book publishers except what was in the
    books themselves, the things that would ultimately go to the schools.
    This question of trying to figure out whether a book is good or bad by
    looking at it carefully or by taking the reports of a lot of people who
    looked at it carelessly is like this famous old problem: Nobody was
    permitted to see the Emperor of China, and the question was, What is the
    length of the Emperor of China's nose? To find out, you go all over the
    country asking people what they think the length of the Emperor of China's
    nose is, and you average it. And that would be very "accurate" because you
    averaged so many people. But it's no way to find anything out; when you have
    a very wide range of people who contribute without looking carefully at it,
    you don't improve your knowledge of the situation by averaging.
    At first we weren't supposed to talk about the cost of the books. We
    were told how many books we could choose, so we designed a program which
    used a lot of supplementary books, because all the new textbooks had
    failures of one kind or another. The most serious failures were in the "new
    math" books: there were no applications; not enough word problems. There was
    no talk of selling stamps; instead there was too much talk about commutation
    and abstract things and not enough translation to situations in the world.
    What do you do: add, subtract, multiply, or divide? So we suggested some
    books which had some of that as supplementary -- one or two for each
    classroom -- in addition to a textbook for each student. We had it all
    worked out to balance everything, after much discussion.
    When we took our recommendations to the Board of Education, they told
    us they didn't have as much money as they had thought, so we'd have to go
    over the whole thing and cut out this and that, now taking the cost into
    consideration, and ruining what was a fairly balanced program, in which
    there was a chance for a teacher to find examples of the things (s)he
    needed.
    Now that they changed the rules about how many books we could recommend
    and we had no more chance to balance, it was a pretty lousy program. When
    the senate budget committee got to it, the program was emasculated still
    further. Now it was really lousy! I was asked to appear before the state
    senators when the issue was being discussed, but I declined: By that time,
    having argued this stuff so much, I was tired. We had prepared our
    recommendations for the Board of Education, and I figured it was their job
    to present it to the state -- which was legally right, but not politically
    sound. I shouldn't have given up so soon, but to have worked so hard and
    discussed so much about all these books to make a fairly balanced program,
    and then to have the whole thing scrapped at the end -- that was
    discouraging! The whole thing was an unnecessary effort that could have been
    turned around and done the opposite way: start with the cost of the books,
    and buy what you can afford.
    What finally clinched it, and made me ultimately resign, was that the
    following year we were going to discuss science books. I thought maybe the
    science would be different, so I looked at a few of them.
    The same thing happened: something would look good at first and then
    turn out to be horrifying. For example, there was a book that started out
    with four pictures: first there was a wind-up toy; then there was an
    automobile; then there was a boy riding a bicycle; then there was something
    else. And underneath each picture it said, "What makes it go?"
    I thought, "I know what it is: They're going to talk about mechanics,
    how the springs work inside the toy; about chemistry, how the engine of the
    automobile works; and biology, about how the muscles work."
    It was the kind of thing my father would have talked about: "What makes
    it go? Everything goes because the sun is shining." And then we would have
    fun discussing it:
    "No, the toy goes because the spring is wound up," I would say.
    "How did the spring get wound up?" he would ask.
    "I wound it up."
    "And how did you get moving?"
    "From eating."
    "And food grows only because the sun is shining. So it's because the
    sun is shining that all these things are moving." That would get the concept
    across that motion is simply the transformation of the sun's power.
    I turned the page. The answer was, for the wind-up toy, "Energy makes
    it go." And for the boy on the bicycle, "Energy makes it go." For
    everything, "Energy makes it go."
    Now that doesn't mean anything. Suppose it's "Wakalixes." That's the
    general principle: "Wakalixes makes it go." There's no knowledge coming in.
    The child doesn't learn anything; it's just a word!
    What they should have done is to look at the wind-up toy, see that
    there are springs inside, learn about springs, learn about wheels, and never
    mind "energy." Later on, when the children know something about how the toy
    actually works, they can discuss the more general principles of energy.
    It's also not even true that "energy makes it go," because if it stops,
    you could say, "energy makes it stop" just as well. What they're talking
    about is concentrated energy being transformed into more dilute forms, which
    is a very subtle aspect of energy. Energy is neither increased nor decreased
    in these examples; it's just changed from one form to another. And when the
    things stop, the energy is changed into heat, into general chaos.
    But that's the way all the books were: They said things that were
    useless, mixed-up, ambiguous, confusing, and partially incorrect. How
    anybody can learn science from these books, I don't know, because it's not
    science.
    So when I saw all these horrifying books with the same kind of trouble
    as the math books had, I saw my volcano process starting again. Since I was
    exhausted from reading all the math books, and discouraged from its all
    being a wasted effort, I couldn't face another year of that, and had to
    resign. Sometime later I heard that the energy-makes-it-go book was going to
    be recommended by the curriculum commission to the Board of Education, so I
    made one last effort. At each meeting of the commission the public was
    allowed to make comments, so I got up and said why I thought the book was
    bad.
    The man who replaced me on the commission said, "That book was approved
    by sixty-five engineers at the Such-and-such Aircraft Company!"
    I didn't doubt that the company had some pretty good engineers, but to
    take sixty-five engineers is to take a wide range of ability -- and to
    necessarily include some pretty poor guys! It was once again the problem of
    averaging the length of the emperor's nose, or the ratings on a book with
    nothing between the covers. It would have been far better to have the
    company decide who their better engineers were, and to have them look at the
    book. I couldn't claim that I was smarter than sixty-five other guys -- but
    the average of sixty-five other guys, certainly!
    I couldn't get through to him, and the book was approved by the board.
    When I was still on the commission, I had to go to San Francisco a few
    times for some of the meetings, and when I returned to Los Angeles from the
    first trip, I stopped in the commission office to get reimbursed for my
    expenses.
    "How much did it cost, Mr. Feynman?"
    "Well, I flew to San Francisco, so it's the airfare, plus the parking
    at the airport while I was away."
    "Do you have your ticket?"
    I happened to have the ticket.
    "Do you have a receipt for the parking?"
    "No, but it cost $2.35 to park my car."
    "But we have to have a receipt."
    "I told you how much it cost. If you don't trust me, why do you let me
    tell you what I think is good and bad about the schoolbooks?".
    There was a big stew about that. Unfortunately, I had been used to
    giving lectures for some company or university or for ordinary people, not
    for the government. I was used to, "What were your expenses?" -- "So-and-so
    much." -- "Here you are, Mr. Feynman."
    I then decided I wasn't going to give them a receipt for anything.
    After the second trip to San Francisco they again asked me for my
    ticket and receipts.
    "I haven't got any."
    "This can't go on, Mr. Feynman."
    "When I accepted to serve on the commission, I was told you were going
    to pay my expenses."
    "But we expected to have some receipts to prove the expenses."
    "I have nothing to prove it, but you know I live in Los Angeles and I
    go to these other towns; how the hell do you think I get there?"
    They didn't give in, and neither did I. I feel when you're in a
    position like that, where you choose not to buckle down to the System, you
    must pay the consequences if it doesn't work. So I'm perfectly satisfied,
    but I never did get compensation for the trips.
    It's one of those games I play. They want a receipt? I'm not giving
    them a receipt. Then you're not going to get the money. OK, then I'm not
    taking the money. They don't trust me? The hell with it; they don't have to
    pay me. Of course it's absurd! I know that's the way the government works;
    well, screw the government! I feel that human beings should treat human
    beings like human beings. And unless I'm going to be treated like one, I'm
    not going to have anything to do with them! They feel bad? They feel bad. I
    feel bad, too. We'll just let it go. I know they're "protecting the
    taxpayer," but see how well you think the taxpayer was being protected in
    the following situation.
    There were two books that we were unable to come to a decision about
    after much discussion; they were extremely close. So we left it open to the
    Board of Education to decide. Since the board was now taking the cost into
    consideration, and since the two books were so evenly matched, the board
    decided to open the bids and take the lower one.
    Then the question came up, "Will the schools be getting the books at
    the regular time, or could they, perhaps, get them a little earlier, in time
    for the coming term?"
    One publisher's representative got up and said, "We are happy that you
    accepted our bid; we can get it out in time for the next term."
    A representative of the publisher that lost out was also there, and he
    got up and said, "Since our bids were submitted based on the later deadline,
    I think we should have a chance to bid again for the earlier deadline,
    because we too can meet the earlier deadline."
    Mr. Norris, the Pasadena lawyer on the board, asked the guy from the
    other publisher, "And how much would it cost for us to get your books at the
    earlier date?"
    And he gave a number: It was less!
    The first guy got up: "If he changes his bid, I have the right to
    change my bid!" -- and his bid is still less!
    Norris asked, "Well how is that -- we get the books earlier and it's
    cheaper?"
    "Yes," one guy says. "We can use a special offset method we wouldn't
    normally use..." -- some excuse why it came out cheaper.
    The other guy agreed: "When you do it quicker, it costs less!"
    That was really a shock. It ended up two million dollars cheaper.
    Norris was really incensed by this sudden change.
    What happened, of course, was that the uncertainty about the date had
    opened the possibility that these guys could bid against each other.
    Normally, when books were supposed to be chosen without taking the cost into
    consideration, there was no reason to lower the price; the book publishers
    could put the prices at any place they wanted to. There was no advantage in
    competing by lowering the price; the way you competed was to impress the
    members of the curriculum commission.
    By the way, whenever our commission had a meeting, there were book
    publishers entertaining curriculum commission members by taking them to
    lunch and talking to them about their books. I never went.
    It seems obvious now, but I didn't know what was happening the time I
    got a package of dried fruit and whatnot delivered by Western Union with a
    message that read, "From our family to yours, Happy Thanksgiving -- The
    Families."
    It was from a family I had never heard of in Long Beach, obviously
    someone wanting to send this to his friend's family who got the name and
    address wrong, so I thought I'd better straighten it out. I called up
    Western Union, got the telephone number of the people who sent the stuff,
    and I called them.
    "Hello, my name is Mr. Feynman. I received a package..."
    "Oh, hello, Mr. Feynman, this is Pete Pamilio" and he says it in such a
    friendly way that I think I'm supposed to know who he is! I'm normally such
    a dunce that I can't remember who anyone is.
    So I said, "I'm sorry, Mr. Pamilio, but I don't quite remember who you
    are..."
    It turned out he was a representative of one of the publishers whose
    books I had to judge on the curriculum commission.
    "I see. But this could be misunderstood."
    "It's only family to family."
    "Yes, but I'm judging a book that you're publishing, and maybe someone
    might misinterpret your kindness!" I knew what was happening, but I made it
    sound like I was a complete idiot.
    Another thing like this happened when one of the publishers sent me a
    leather briefcase with my name nicely written in gold on it. I gave them the
    same stuff: "I can't accept it; I'm judging some of the books you're
    publishing. I don't think you understand that!"
    One commissioner, who had been there for the greatest length of time,
    said, "I never accept the stuff; it makes me very upset. But it just goes
    on."
    But I really missed one opportunity. If I had only thought fast enough,
    I could have had a very good time on that commission. I got to the hotel in
    San Francisco in the evening to attend my very first meeting the next day,
    and I decided to go out to wander in the town and eat something. I came out
    of the elevator, and sitting on a bench in the hotel lobby were two guys who
    jumped up and said, "Good evening, Mr. Feynman. Where are you going? Is
    there something we can show you in San Francisco?" They were from a
    publishing company, and I didn't want to have anything to do with them.
    "I'm going out to eat."
    "We can take you out to dinner."
    "No, I want to be alone."
    "Well, whatever you want, we can help you."
    I couldn't resist. I said, "Well, I'm going out to get myself in
    trouble."
    "I think we can help you in that, too."
    "No, I think I'll take care of that myself." Then I thought, "What an
    error! I should have let all that stuff operate and keep a diary, so the
    people of the state of California could find out how far the publishers will
    go!" And when I found out about the two-million-dollar difference, God knows
    what the pressures are!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  6. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Because we all know that smart kids are all super motivated.
    ahem it's their responsibility to be motivated

    or, as long as they're minors, it's the responsibility of their parents
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Dear Aimless,

    You are a fucking moron.

    Sincerely,
    Ominous Gamer
    pff just because you're sincere doesn't mean you're right lewkowski mk 2
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  8. #98
    Minx, you've done more to harm the cause of socialism than anyone since Stalin. Continue posting. Makes my job easier.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  9. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    pff just because you're sincere doesn't mean you're right lewkowski mk 2
    Its got nothing to do with being sincere.

    It does have to do with knowing what the fuck you're talking about; and when it comes to public education you already admitted to being behind the curve in the teacher pay thread.

  10. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    feynman
    Entertaining as always

    there you have it... not simply "teaching to the lowest common denominator". just shoddy teaching. Poor quality control. And some students are given the opportunity to have an education that people've put some effort into making worthwhile.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  11. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Its got nothing to do with being sincere.

    It does have to do with knowing what the fuck you're talking about; and when it comes to public education you already admitted to being behind the curve in the teacher pay thread.
    yeah okay like i wanted to talk about the relative age effect and you decided that was about how kids would make fun of your daughter for being bigger than her classmates

    so, uhm...
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  12. #102
    Maybe it's my raging socialism talking, but Minx seems to be the only sensible poster in this thread of late

    Even if his writing style is a bit infuriating
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  13. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Minx, you've done more to harm the cause of socialism than anyone since Stalin. Continue posting. Makes my job easier.
    and we're back to you wanting things easy




    My point is simply that you guys should be investing in improving the overall quality of your education rather than screwing all but a select few kids. that should be your first objective. i see it as an obvious obligation that your state has to all your kids. that's not an absurd idea. it doesn't require socialism.

    you don't want to do this because you've some bizarre notions of merit and worth and want everything easy.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  14. #104
    Do you notice that you Scandinavian education systems seem to produce people who think virtually alike on major economic and social issues? At least the American system is able to produce people who don't buy the state propaganda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    My point is simply that you guys should be investing in improving the overall quality of your education rather than screwing all but a select few kids. that should be your first objective. i see it as an obvious obligation that your state has to all your kids. that's not an absurd idea. it doesn't require socialism.

    you don't want to do this because you've some bizarre notions of merit and worth and want everything easy.
    If you paid attention at all, you'd know America spends a lot of money on its public school system. The issue is not one of "investing" money. But continuing spouting your propaganda. Do you get brownie points from the Ministry of Truth?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Do you notice that you Scandinavian education systems seem to produce people who think virtually alike on major economic and social issues? At least the American system is able to produce people who don't buy the state propaganda.
    so vague as to be useless

    it's 100% likely that this is because 1. lots of americans get shoddy education so they don't agree with good ideas and 2. your state propaganda is all lies and populist garbage

    that said, there are different thoughts here as well, it's just that scandinavian education tends to produce human beings whereas the american system often produces animals. furthermore, it's not very popular to be against welfare, so it's a bad idea for a politician



    HEY NESSIE, how many people live in Finland btw??
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  16. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Do you notice that you Scandinavian education systems seem to produce people who think virtually alike on major economic and social issues? At least the American system is able to produce people who don't buy the state propaganda.
    Ahahaha

    And you lambasted me for making statements I couldn't back up

    We have more political diversity in Scandahoovia than you do in the US

    And yes that includes economic and social issues

    I am really tempted to borrow a page from Khen's book here but I'ma restrain myself
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  17. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    They clearly failed at teaching your class analytical reasoning
    i can't believe i missed this i thought back at you in the healthcare debates and chuckled

    as Fuzzy put it, "Garbage in, garbage out"

    no doubt you have exceptional skills in analysis, but you apply them to garbage and you do so without care or caution, most likely because you know beforehand where you want to end up (rubbish heap). that's not admirable, it's deplorable. you're right, we haven't been given much instruction in such asshattery.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  18. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post

    My point is simply that you guys should be investing in improving the overall quality of your education rather than screwing all but a select few kids.
    I still fail to see how having a group of students doing advanced or more in depth course work is screwing the majority.
    Don't you support smaller class sizes? Cause thats one positive side effect. Not to mention the reduced behaviorial problems from removing the bored students.

    Its not like its robbing money from the normal classes, if anything many gifted programs suffer from underfunding.

    The normal classes aren't being dumbed down, hell they are usually being taught the same stuff. The gifted classes simply go more in depth. Where an average class would take a week to understand how an owl's digestive system works, the gifted class covers the same work in a day or 2 and spends the rest of the time ripping into owl pellets to rebuild that owl's lunch.

    Damn near impossible construction, concentration, and maturity from your average 4th grade class.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 02-01-2010 at 05:42 PM.

  19. #109
    Because these kids who are so smrt they should be able to do it themselves are still kids. Did we stop including the younger age cohorts in the discussion at some point? They don't think long-term, a number of psych development theories claim they literally can't.

    You said that the really bright kids *which you identified as* should be taught at a slower, less challenging rate, and pull out books and such when done, so they could get more socialization benefits. You indicated this is how things went for you, and you were quite satisfied, anecdotally. Strangely enough it went the same way for me, even to pulling out the fantasy novel. The lessons I learned were to procrastinate and coast, and those lessons did not serve me well. My little sister, OTOH, qualified for a pilot advanced program the district had just started, when she was nine or ten. She spent some time in with the rest of her class, and some time in another class with other advanced students. It kept her interested in her work, and helped her form much better habits.

    You say we put responsibility and blame on disadvantaged kids, and that's a load of bullshit. The responsibility and blame is on the teachers and on the school system, but their actions are reasonable. No one's talking seriously about the challenges of disadvantaged kids because those are recognized and there are any number of programs, efforts, and funding directed at helping them, unchallenged and unmentioned because they're so accepted. We're talking about "Adam Average." There's nothing wrong with Joe Average, and he's not holding anyone back, but if we devote just a few more resources, we can hopefully have both him and Samantha Smart work at their full potential, rather than just Joe while watching Samantha coast, while only Marvin Motivated really shines.

    edit: You've effectively said that only the motivated deserve to achieve really high success, while the smart but unmotivated should have been smarter. But that lack of motivation is a learned behavior, a reaction to their environment, something that we teach them in not taking the time to challenge them. The motivated smart people aren't smarter, they happen to possess natural self-motivation which leaves them unsatisfied with coasting. You're simply choosing to favor one set of advantages over another, and leaving children to suffer from something we've taught them.
    Last edited by LittleFuzzy; 02-01-2010 at 06:26 PM.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  20. #110
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    I wonder how you guys think teaching should work. Come on, tell me: What methods do you think of when you hear the word "class room teaching"?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  21. #111
    Do you notice that you Scandinavian education systems seem to produce people who think virtually alike on major economic and social issues?
    With your sample group of all of two people.

    It is this kind of vigorous thinking and intellectual honest that's got you the reputation on here you so richly deserve, sir.
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  22. #112
    Not read whole thread but see immediate problems - due to having lived in both hemisphere's which admit at different times.

    Admitting twice a year would mean running two parallel school years with half the kids in one, half in another. But that would cause problems with holidays, you have a longer summer holiday than a winter holiday - would you either have a really long break for half the kids smack bang in the middle of their school year . . . very disruptive . . . or would you have half the kids have a long summer holiday, while the other take a long winter holiday . . . not really feasible and majorly disruptive . . . or would you equalise the holidays giving just as long a winter as summer holiday . . . which would be terribly unpopular with families and inconsistent with the whole of society.

    The idea is a non-runner due to that alone.

    When I moved from the Northern Hemisphere to the Southern Hemisphere I skipped 1.5 years, let alone 1.

  23. #113
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Do you really think it makes a difference weather someone spends 12 years in school or 10?
    That isn't a problem, the problem is that you aren't with kids your own age. One year is not so bad, but any more and you'll likely have a lot of trouble coming from age differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    well then obviously that'd be an excellent place to start fixing your education in a way that would benefit very many students instead of just the few students loki and tear have intellectual hardons for
    While I agree they should get their general education levels up, I don't have a problem with advanced classes for smarter kids, as long as it doesn't disadvantage the less advanced kids. Our high schools differentiate from about age 11, between vocational and academic (although they don't start teaching vocational things for another two years). It is possible to switch between the levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Not read whole thread but see immediate problems - due to having lived in both hemisphere's which admit at different times.

    Admitting twice a year would mean running two parallel school years with half the kids in one, half in another. But that would cause problems with holidays, you have a longer summer holiday than a winter holiday - would you either have a really long break for half the kids smack bang in the middle of their school year . . . very disruptive . . . or would you have half the kids have a long summer holiday, while the other take a long winter holiday . . . not really feasible and majorly disruptive . . . or would you equalise the holidays giving just as long a winter as summer holiday . . . which would be terribly unpopular with families and inconsistent with the whole of society.

    The idea is a non-runner due to that alone.

    When I moved from the Northern Hemisphere to the Southern Hemisphere I skipped 1.5 years, let alone 1.
    What about using a semester system?
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  24. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    If you paid attention at all, you'd know America spends a lot of money on its public school system. The issue is not one of "investing" money. But continuing spouting your propaganda. Do you get brownie points from the Ministry of Truth?
    if you paid any attention at all you'd know that america has a habit of spending lots of money for garbage eg. your healthcare system, your food, etc

    maybe you should spend money well and in such a way that you get something worthwhile in return

    the issue is not simply one of spending money, no. the issue is and has always been and will always be about finding out what you need and then making sure you get it at a reasonable cost
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  25. #115
    i forgot that "investing" = "spending money", my apologies
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  26. #116
    The school district and Board of Education soon will be moving into development of the Fiscal Year 2011 budget. The budget must be finalized and approved by June 30, 2010. At this time, the state Legislature is in session and considering education funding for the coming fiscal year. Unfortunately, all signs indicate that due to the depressed economy, education funding will be reduced substantially.

    The xx School Districts general fund operating budget is based on funding from two primary sources: 1) revenue provided by the state (42 percent), and 2) revenue collected locally through property tax (54 percent). Federal funding accounts for about 4 percent of the budget. Both the state and local funding portions are anticipating significant declines for the coming budget cycle. In fact, the school district recently was notified of additional cuts in the FY2010 budget that will require three additional furlough days for employees before the end of the current fiscal year. Keep in mind that the school district already has cut more than $77 million from the current Fiscal Year 2010 budget - cuts that eliminated instructional programs and reduced the districts reserve fund by $10 million.

    As the state Legislature continues to meet, and the depth of the budget crisis becomes known, the school district will implement a communication plan to inform the community of revenue projections and potential cuts under consideration. Community input will be critical when substantial reductions in educational services are contemplated.


    Just read this in an email from the school district, thought it might be of interest.
    Last edited by littlelolligagged; 02-02-2010 at 08:25 PM.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  27. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    That isn't a problem, the problem is that you aren't with kids your own age. One year is not so bad, but any more and you'll likely have a lot of trouble coming from age differences.
    Why? My school encouraged skipping years and it did kids no harm. I was in the top-set class of everything and most of the classes were the same kids - and most of those kids had already skipped a full year. We also skipped a second year in maths (Year 9 we did both Years 9 and 10 maths in one year, so 10 did 11, 11 did 12 while 12 did university credits if they wanted to continue). So we were studying material that for one kid who'd skipped 2 years was for people 3 years junior in age. Yet the people who'd been stretched got the best grades - wonder why that is?
    What about using a semester system?
    I addressed that, even within a semester system you naturally have a "years" worth of material to cover. Trying to design it so that the long summer holiday could just as equally fit between first and second semester as it could between the years wouldn't work. And for what?

  28. #118
    revenue collected locally through property tax (54 percent)
    Lolli---now compare the portion Californians pay, for example, in their property taxes. I don't have the figure off-hand but it's lower than 54%. Even tho their property values are sky high, that's how their property taxes remain 'affordable'. hmm

  29. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Lolli---now compare the portion Californians pay, for example, in their property taxes. I don't have the figure off-hand but it's lower than 54%. Even tho their property values are sky high, that's how their property taxes remain 'affordable'. hmm
    Okay, well, since we're cutting instructional programs it seems to me that we need to be raising property taxes. They aren't prohibitively high, anyway.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  30. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post
    Just read this in an email from the school district, thought it might be of interest.
    It should be noted that 4% statistic is misleading. That's direct federal funding, it does not include federal funds flowing back to the state in block grants or other forms, which the state then distributes.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

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