That's a crock of shit.Originally Posted by Being
I suppose by your logic referring to Israel as a nuclear state is out of order too?
That's a crock of shit.
I suppose by your logic referring to Israel as a nuclear state is out of order too?
Israel doesn't confirm or deny but maybe you have some supporting evidence that they are? Innuendo won't do...
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
*cough*
Wikileaks and the data dumps either confirm what we always suspected (people lie and scheme, politicians are players, spies and moles are everywhere, nothing new here folks, move along), or force us to rethink what we thought was a higher standard entrusted to our diplomats (don't those guys have to go through rigorous screening beyond a piss test, who ARE these people and why are they trusted with Top Secret stuff when they sound like they'd throw their own mother under the bus?)
I don't see the motivation in this thread for calling posters illogical, or anti-expert.
Being, you're a muppet. If you want to let the grown-ups have a conversation then, you don't need mummy and daddy to confirm things in order for them to be known.
Apparently with Interpol's "Red Notice" to arrest Assange he's gone into hiding shaving his head, so they need to look for someone who looks like this:
You're one of those idiots who accept innuendo as fact (I believe we call them sheep). No wonder you were all gung-ho for going to war in Iraq.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/04/wo...agewanted=1&hp
And actual diplomats insist that this will have a damaging effect.
Hope is the denial of reality
And?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/03/op...=2&ref=opinion (one of the top diplomatic historians of our generation)
Hope is the denial of reality
And?
"AND"??! German and Canadian politicians are resigning in droves while Turkey is getting increasingly mean! How can you be so damned blasé??! Nixon and Kissinger dammit!
I'm not sure what it is you've been trying to say in this thread. Is it simply that the leaking of these particular thousands of documents is totally inconsequential? Is it that leaking of diplomatic cables in general is inconsequential? Is it that there is no difference between "feeling" and "knowing"? I've had two cups of coffee and I still don't understand.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/05/wo...afghan.html?hp
And now it looks like the position of the US ambassador to Afghanistan was undermined. Still no effect though.
Hope is the denial of reality
Anything new? Not red faces for ambassadors/diplomats/etc but actually new information?
Hope is the denial of reality
Yes, and have you read me rebut or deny that at all?
Have you read what I've been saying? Do you accept that (so far) there's not really anything new or shocking in any of these cables?
Of course Diplomats don't like their secrets published, and some revelations harm some of them. That doesn't mean it was actually bad, though. There's a decent argument that people have a right to know what their government does/tries to cover up. Hell, your own link says that the german guy resigned because he leaked confidential information to the americans. I don't see anything wrong with that being brought public...
I think that some information, especially in diplomatic talks, should remain confidential since dealings with certain countries is easier out of the spotlight. But I can see why some others support total freedom.
Your argument that diplomats think it is bad is a crap argument, the government and the military also claimed that the Pentagon Papers had a damaging effect (hell, they did), but do you think those should not have been published? And a bunch of previous Wikileaks leaks were definitely valuable to have out in the open.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
Wow, the US used diplomatic pressure to stop Germany from investigating the El-Masri kidnapping too closely?not cool
Btw, why is SO MUCH info so very classified by default??!
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
The link before that is by a diplomatic historian. Does he have an interest in keeping the information secret? How about diplomats from other countries? Or former US diplomats? Let's be honest here: almost anyone who knows anything about diplomacy thinks these leaks are bad.
When significant crimes are being committed, democracy demands access to relevant information. What is why leaks about wrong-doing are actually protected by the law.
Hope is the denial of reality
It's not just about crimes, though. Openness in general is good. E.g. previous wikileaks about, say, Guantanamo Bay, were probably good to have out in the open, even when no crime was committed. And do you think it is just that the Yemeni president lies to his people about the US airstrikes being his own? I'd say they have a right to know.
Note that I agree that these leaks are misguided, at best. But I can see where the thought is coming from. And there are most certainly portions of this leak that are worth having in the open. It's more the scale of the leak that is the problem, since it makes any diplomatic cable public, undermining the way diplomacy works. I guess it would be better if only the more important controversial ones were leaked.. I'm inclined to agree with this article.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
They have the right to know this information from their own politicians/media. America isn't God. It's not America's job to inform people in Yemen, especially given the cost. But more generally, pray tell why openness in negotiations is useful. How many government bills do you think would open if negotiations were open to all? How many treaties do you think would be created? How many business deals would take place? There's a place for openness, but that place is not in negotiations and diplomacy. And if you seem to think openness is always good, can I take it you also think we should be free to see everyone's medical records, know what was in their divorce settlements, know what they tell their lawyers, etc.?
They're coming from a complete lack of knowledge about diplomacy, and a simplistic and downright idiotic belief that just because the internet works best when it has no restrictions, the same should apply to every other avenue of social interaction. The Economist piece seems to suggest that just because someone does something good, they shouldn't be punished for doing anything bad. Great argument there.
Hope is the denial of reality
First of all, America didn't release the information, but I'm happy you agree that it isn't God (and Wikileaks is not American either). Besides, the American people also have a right to know that the US is bombing there, wouldn't you say?
I realize that negotiations require confidentiality. I never denied this, and agree that this leak compromises the way diplomacy works. But there are also bad sides to (complete) confidentiality. But, as the example about the German guy who was kidnapped and tortured illustrates, some things are good to have out in the open. Leaking information also has its good sides. It's amusing to see you complain about people who deny the downsides of leaking these documents, but then deny any advantages of it yourself. The world isn't black and white, you know. So yes, I think that these leaks were a bad decision and should not have happened, but there are also things out in the open now that should be out in the open.
And I expected you to see the difference between private information, and information of the government, which is accountable to us. So I'm not sure how you are trying to compare it to medical records.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
Why this is more akin to letting everyone see their own medical records given that they the people are the nations.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Hope is the denial of reality
Well, looks like Loki is screwed. Better switch to an Arts degree...
Students shouldn't read, comment on, or post links to anything concerning the leaks...
Your security clearance has been denied......seen as a violation of Executive Order 13526, Classified National Security Information
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Saw a quote earlier that said something along the lines of "By far the most frightening thing revealed by the leaked cables is how the US government responds to leaked cables." Then you read of cables that cover up child sex slavery in Afghanistan. And you start to understand why America started flipping out before the cables were released to the public.
But again, this isn't anything new when you consider the previous problems the military has had with underage rape and murder.
Really? I don't recall that. I remember various UN agencies and UN peacekeepers being in the news for that, *repeatedly* but not US troops.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Don't remember the Mahmudiyah killings with Sgt. Paul E. Cortez?
The same corp under heat by that leak Omi posted had the same troubles back in the 90's, got yelled at by Congress or someone, promised real sweet to shut down, and then did their best to block the legislation levied at them. And now they're back to their old tricks.
I mean, selling some kiddie ass is a perfectly reasonable response from a nation bent on buying revenge for 9/11 at all costs
Isn't it?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Obama administration’s attempt to stop people from reading them continues unabated, creating mounting confusion and head-shaking among bewildered federal employees.
Let's stick our heads in the sand and pretend nothing happened.I think more damage will be done by keeping the federal workforce largely in the dark about what other interested parties worldwide are going to be reading and analyzing.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
This one is a little closer to home
US turns against an American company by planning to secretly hand over customs documents to the Spanish government, in return for a painting
Did I mention heads in sand?
Being blind does not make you deaf and dumb.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
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