Another Reason the Middle East is Terrible

[Dreadnaught]

http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

Man I forgot about that site, what a throwback.

[Draco]

http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

Oh so you have a sense of humour. That gave me a nice laugh though, thanks!!

What you really are is a self-loathing cultural chauvinist who surrounds himself with people whose main purpose is to affirm your ludicrous worldviews.

Oh wow, you're a mind reader now too? If only the Russians had you a few decades ago.
But yes, you're absolutely right, I do hate myself so so much..like right now, I'm cutting my wrists over the keyboard because I just can't take this nihilistic existence. All I see are socialists and overweight feminist-socialist girls (please don't go all PC on my ass) trying to convince me of their wacky ideas. But I love how you conveniently quoted only that one part in my post, just so you could paste that little website of yours.

Oh and as for a particular person 'hating' against their 'own group' or ethnic community or whatever, there's usually a good reason for that.

It's all right, we're all willing victims of confirmation bias and we all love yea-sayers, and I suppose it's a good thing you're occasionally exposed to wisdom here on the forums.

Yeah, too bad you're not one of the people showing the wisdom. The only person on this forum who doesn't agree with me, and whom I can have a civilised debate with is GGT, and so far she's the only one who has made me question certain aspects of my views. A lot of you just jump to wild accusations and take on some moral high ground stance.

Although, as noted in another thread, people like you tend to become even more entrenched in your idiocy when you're challenged.

That's funny, I think the same about you. Have you ever even remotely considered what and why the opposing side is saying? I once thought like you do: free health care, free this, free that, hush hush we don't want to offend anyone, the Western world is bad because of colonialism etc (since Australian society is more left wing, and even in senior high school English we had to write an essay about "Americanisation" which in other words was about how bad America is in promoting its culture, but please continue to give us technology and medicine). But since I've always considered myself to be a rational person in other aspects of my life, I figured I'd apply that to my political and philosophical convictions. So here I am today

we have too many angry young idiots here as it is.

Including yourself, going by the nature of your previous posts.

Hopefully this will strengthen you in your resolve to flee to the land of the Tea Party:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/we...syndrome-pt--2

That was funny

[Hazir]

I don't think a credible claim can be made about it being a western power back then.

Same is true for Italy, Italy as far as it existed as a concept at all was merely the hinterland of the Western Power of the day, not a power in its own right.

[Aimless]

Oh wow, you're a mind reader now too? If only the Russians had you a few decades ago.
But yes, you're absolutely right, I do hate myself so so much..like right now, I'm cutting my wrists over the keyboard because I just can't take this nihilistic existence.

That stereotype is probably inappropriate, given that such actions more often come from psychiatric illness rather than garden variety self-loathing. I'm not surprised that you've never reflected on these prejudices of yours.

All I see are socialists and overweight feminist-socialist girls (please don't go all PC on my ass) trying to convince me of their wacky ideas.

Of course that's all you see, that's all you choose to see. It's an easy way to help you ignore other views. It's similar to straw-manning, and you youngsters are especially skilled at it. We've all been there. I remember the days when I thought no-one knew anything, especially not adults.

I'm not surprised that you like objectifying women, that's only to be expected from self-loathing virgins that can't get no respect.

Oh and as for a particular person 'hating' against their 'own group' or ethnic community or whatever, there's usually a good reason for that.

Actually there are usually many reasons for that, and a number of those reasons can be found within the person doing the hating. Look at how strongly Lewk hates humanity, despite being human. People have a lot of attitudes about a lot of things and the wise man realizes that most of the time those attitudes reflect subjective perception shaped to a great extent by emotions and other psychological interference. That doesn't make those attitudes illegitimate, but it does mean they should be taken as nothing more than maps to possible truths.

Yeah, too bad you're not one of the people showing the wisdom. The only person on this forum who doesn't agree with me, and whom I can have a civilised debate with is GGT, and so far she's the only one who has made me question certain aspects of my views. A lot of you just jump to wild accusations and take on some moral high ground stance.

Yes, good thing GGT gives you something you like or want. Since she's doing that so well I can cover some other approach.

Have you ever even remotely considered what and why the opposing side is saying?

Of course I have, Loki has changed my life in many ways

I once thought like you do: free health care, free this, free that, hush hush we don't want to offend anyone, the Western world is bad because of colonialism etc (since Australian society is more left wing, and even in senior high school English we had to write an essay about "Americanisation" which in other words was about how bad America is in promoting its culture, but please continue to give us technology and medicine). But since I've always considered myself to be a rational person in other aspects of my life, I figured I'd apply that to my political and philosophical convictions. So here I am today

This is where you coulda used some careful introspection and reflection. What you describe above is textbook. That you've made such a dramatic and sudden change is a clear indicator that you're not being rational, you're instead establishing a new identity in order to break with an identity or a life in which you weren't particularly happy or felt particularly safe. Maybe it's all because of that crazy communist girl that made you feel threatened, maybe you're subjected to other pressures--financial, social, emotional, psychological--it doesn't matter. That kind of sudden turnaround is a warning sign that you're not being entirely rational, or even remotely rational. It's like becoming a Born Again Christian, or converting from Christianity to Islam.

This shouldn't surprise you. We aren't purely rational beings, our need to feel safe and centered in our selves and in our lives surpasses by far any need we might have to obtain the objective truth. Nor should it surprise you that you haven't found The Truth in the few short years you've been looking for it. We have as a species spent thousands of years and we still aren't there.

Including yourself, going by the nature of your previous posts.

Anger can be extremely productive, but in my life I'm not a particularly angry man. You are, which is why you so happily dismiss me and those like me as being wishy-washy PC leftist sissies.

[Draco]

That stereotype is probably inappropriate, given that such actions more often come from psychiatric illness rather than garden variety self-loathing. I'm not surprised that you've never reflected on these prejudices of yours.

More mind reading, great.

Of course that's all you see, that's all you choose to see. It's an easy way to help you ignore other views. It's similar to straw-manning, and you youngsters are especially skilled at it. We've all been there. I remember the days when I thought no-one knew anything, especially not adults.

Here you go again. Quoting only specific lines of my post and making it out to be something that it wasn't. Too bad sarcasm doesn't work with you, but being a PC-left wing type must do that (oh see what I did there? I just threw another of my generalisations at you, do you recognise that from your own posts?)

I'm not surprised that you like objectifying women, that's only to be expected from self-loathing virgins that can't get no respect.

Oh yes, I do love objectifying women. But you are right, I am a virgin! (proud of it too) Your mind reading skills are incredible. I can't wait to read what else you'll discover.

Actually there are usually many reasons for that, and a number of those reasons can be found within the person doing the hating. Look at how strongly Lewk hates humanity, despite being human. People have a lot of attitudes about a lot of things and the wise man realizes that most of the time those attitudes reflect subjective perception shaped to a great extent by emotions and other psychological interference. That doesn't make those attitudes illegitimate, but it does mean they should be taken as nothing more than maps to possible truths.

And you're a personal friend of Lewk I'm guessing, for you to make such a sweeping statement as "hating humanity."

Yes, good thing GGT gives you something you like or want. Since she's doing that so well I can cover some other approach.

Yeah, she's about one of the few members in this forum who doesn't take on a moral high ground approach of "Oh, you don't have many life experiences...you don't understand what you're saying...you this, you that" and insert some more condescending behaviour.

This is where you coulda used some careful introspection and reflection.

I don't need to prove myself to you

What you describe above is textbook. That you've made such a dramatic and sudden change is a clear indicator that you're not being rational, you're instead establishing a new identity in order to break with an identity or a life in which you weren't particularly happy or felt particularly safe. Maybe it's all because of that crazy communist girl that made you feel threatened, maybe you're subjected to other pressures--financial, social, emotional, psychological--it doesn't matter. That kind of sudden turnaround is a warning sign that you're not being entirely rational, or even remotely rational. It's like becoming a Born Again Christian, or converting from Christianity to Islam.

So tell me, where exactly did I say that I made a "sudden change" ?? Again with your oversimplifications, just to suit your claims, and so you can apply some sort of psychological approach to it all, and in the end conclude that I'm just being subjected to various pressures.

This shouldn't surprise you. We aren't purely rational beings, our need to feel safe and centered in our selves and in our lives surpasses by far any need we might have to obtain the objective truth. Nor should it surprise you that you haven't found The Truth in the few short years you've been looking for it. We have as a species spent thousands of years and we still aren't there.

Ok.

Anger can be extremely productive, but in my life I'm not a particularly angry man. You are, which is why you so happily dismiss me and those like me as being wishy-washy PC leftist sissies.

But of course, I must be an angry man because of xyz reason you read in some textbook or heard some person say.

Oh and what about your sudden change from 'Mr angry-PC-left-wing man' to 'Mr-understandable-moral high ground-smug' man?

[Aimless]

Dude, you're, what, fifteen? You haven't had any time to make any changes that are anything but relatively sudden. As for your characterisation of GGT, er, it's not accurate. Berating us young whippersnappers, reminding us of our limited experiences and resultant moral failure are among the most valuable and the most important contributions she makes to these community

You gotta be nicer to yourself man. When we're too hard on ourselves for too long, too intolerant of our flaws and quirks, too willing to cast different characteristics of our lives as failures (usually out of some misguided belief that that's the way to improve), why then we also become jerks towards other people. What's worse, we become less and less able to change ourselves actively, less and less flexible. In a couple of decades we petrify and putrefy into our dads and start another cycle of the evil wheel. It helps no-one, surely you understand this.

[Draco]

Dude, you're, what, fifteen? You haven't had any time to make any changes that are anything but relatively sudden. As for your characterisation of GGT, er, it's not accurate. Berating us young whippersnappers, reminding us of our limited experiences and resultant moral failure are among the most valuable and the most important contributions she makes to these community

You gotta be nicer to yourself man. When we're too hard on ourselves for too long, too intolerant of our flaws and quirks, too willing to cast different characteristics of our lives as failures (usually out of some misguided belief that that's the way to improve), why then we also become jerks towards other people. What's worse, we become less and less able to change ourselves actively, less and less flexible. In a couple of decades we petrify and putrefy into our dads and start another cycle of the evil wheel. It helps no-one, surely you understand this.

No actually I'm 13, but you're SO right.

And this post of yours is a perfect example of what I was just saying, and why I can have a normal debate with GGT, one that doesn't result in condescending bullsh!t. So *puts on psychologist glasses*, this indictes to me that you yourself suffer from some sort of personal issue(s) *insert some more textbook phrases*, whereby you find it difficult to express yourself in real life, to say what's on your mind, so the internet is your outlet and you attack others with an opposing view. Likening them to teenagers and trying to discern something about their personality (from mere posts of course) gives you this intellectual high, and eventually you walk away from a thread feeling a lot better about yourself, and most importantly: smarter. /end condescending crap.

[Aimless]

well duh I feel smarter, these are great learning opportunities. i don't have difficulties with--or many compunctions about--expressing myself irl but obviously i'm more cautious considerate and diplomatic irl--after all i'm not inclined towards self-sabotage.

good luck finding a person who doesn't have "personal issues" do you imagine you don't have any? of course you do, at least three that you think you're aware of and a dozen more that you're not aware of. this is the way of things, here, in Oz, even in the Middle East

[Aimless]

As for condescending bullshit, why do you claim to appreciate freedom from condescending bullshit even though that's what you frequently provide? of course much of the time your condescending bullshit is safely directed at people and groups that aren't present here and thus can't respond, but it's all the same.

[LittleFuzzy]

I see the same one in Iberia, France, Briton, Greece, North Africa, Anatolia &c, which had it's capital on the Italian peninsular. It's not about governments, but about nations as coherent political and cultural entities.

So Germany's only 20 or so years old? Or are you trying to use that "cultural" bit to justify an unstated, probably unwarranted, and totally unlike comparison of countries based on your impression of what you have been taught is their historically modern form *Italy and Germany since their 19th century unifications, England during/after the Industrial Revolution, post-Revolutionary France, USSR, etc*

[LittleFuzzy]

Same is true for Italy, Italy as far as it existed as a concept at all was merely the hinterland of the Western Power of the day, not a power in its own right.

You're going to have to explain that. Italy was merely the hinterland of the Western Power of the day, in the time-frame I outlined? Maybe at the end of it, but for the great wars for the Mediterranean, with the Greeks and with Carthage, as late as 140 BC, the peninsula was the Roman center in far more ways than just geographically. Are you claiming that all the power was really Rome as a city-state, with the rest of Italy a hinterland? That wasn't the case. It became more true under the Empire.

[Loki]

So Germany's only 20 or so years old? Or are you trying to use that "cultural" bit to justify an unstated, probably unwarranted, and totally unlike comparison of countries based on your impression of what you have been taught is their historically modern form *Italy and Germany since their 19th century unifications, England during/after the Industrial Revolution, post-Revolutionary France, USSR, etc*

I think you're conflating state with regime. The German state has existed since 1871, and one could make a solid argument that it's a successor to Prussia. Just because the French are up to their millionth "republic" doesn't mean that it's the millionth state in that territory. I am willing to consider Piedmont to be the equivalent of Italy, but using Rome is going a bit too far.

[Steely Glint]

So Germany's only 20 or so years old? Or are you trying to use that "cultural" bit to justify an unstated, probably unwarranted, and totally unlike comparison of countries based on your impression of what you have been taught is their historically modern form *Italy and Germany since their 19th century unifications, England during/after the Industrial Revolution, post-Revolutionary France, USSR, etc*

If Germany is not 20 years old, or ~100 years old, then how old is it, exactly? As old as the European landmass in its current form?

[LittleFuzzy]

I think you're conflating state with regime. The German state has existed since 1871, and one could make a solid argument that it's a successor to Prussia. Just because the French are up to their millionth "republic" doesn't mean that it's the millionth state in that territory. I am willing to consider Piedmont to be the equivalent of Italy, but using Rome is going a bit too far.

Well we could have a very long debate about when Italy started to qualify as a western power at all.

[Illusions]

Well we could have a very long debate about when Italy started to qualify as a western power at all.

We could, if you weren't furiously holding some obtuse idea of what constitutes Italy that wildly diverges from what everyone else thinks...

[LittleFuzzy]

We could, if you weren't furiously holding some obtuse idea of what constitutes Italy that wildly diverges from what everyone else thinks...

None of the rest of you think anything. You're accepting a bad implied definition/framework without any thought at all.

[GGT]

None of the rest of you think anything.

That was just mean, Fuzzy.

[Nessus]

That was just mean, Fuzzy.

It's pretty on character, though.

[GGT]

I'd say only ancient history buffs would know how to compare geographic and political maps over time, from BC to CE. Using a term like "Italy" makes most people think of Rome, or perhaps Vatican City in latter days, which also means the Roman Catholic Church. Others want to get technical about nation/state/regime. Could have avoided some of this by using the term Empire?

History, in general, was quite boring in my younger school years. I didn't care much about politics, either. Secondary things related to science or language or sociology caught my interest, though. Why is a footstool called an ottoman? (Look up the Ottoman Empire) What's the difference between Greek or Latin word derivatives? (Look up medicine and languages)

It's fairly hard to carry on a conversation about World History with Greek-speaking people, whose alphabet could just as well be Chinese symbols, and their language isn't Germanic. That doesn't mean we're stupid, or that "the rest of us don't think anyway".

[LittleFuzzy]

That was just mean, Fuzzy.

I've addressed it politely two times so far *or was it three?*, and have gotten nine replies of "you said Rome, durr." *and one reply from Hazir that might be going along* Time for something less polite.

[GGT]

I've addressed it politely two times so far *or was it three?*, and have gotten nine replies of "you said Rome, durr." *and one reply from Hazir that might be going along* Time for something less polite.

Maybe it's your fault for not addressing it quite right, two or three times over. Surely you can be less polite without being downright mean.

[LittleFuzzy]

Maybe it's your fault for not addressing it quite right, two or three times over. Surely you can be less polite without being downright mean.

I don't think they've misunderstood me. They're either ignoring specific paragraphs and posts, or they just don't care. Either way they've irritated me enough that I'm not going to take care to avoid "being mean."

[Illusions]

I don't think they've misunderstood me. They're either ignoring specific paragraphs and posts, or they just don't care. Either way they've irritated me enough that I'm not going to take care to avoid "being mean."

You answered "Well we could have a very long debate about when Italy started to qualify as a western power at all." with "Somewhere between 508 BC and 27 BC?" a time period when, while the landmass known as Italy existed, the identity of such a people or nation did not. We've pointed this out to you. You've chosen to treat it as if we're making stupid remarks. Unless you were being sarcastic or were joking, I'm unsure of how we've misunderstood you.

[LittleFuzzy]

You answered "Well we could have a very long debate about when Italy started to qualify as a western power at all." with "Somewhere between 508 BC and 27 BC?" a time period when, while the landmass known as Italy existed, the identity of such a people or nation did not. We've pointed this out to you. You've chosen to treat it as if we're making stupid remarks. Unless you were being sarcastic or were joking, I'm unsure of how we've misunderstood you.

And what else have I said in this thread, related to this discussion, that wasn't directly "Rome was a western power"? Hmm?

[Hazir]

And what else have I said in this thread, related to this discussion, that wasn't directly "Rome was a western power"? Hmm?

Somehow I doubt the people who complain about Western Imperialism as the root cause of all ills in the Middle East are including the original ?Western Imperial power in their definition of Western Imperialism.

[LittleFuzzy]

Somehow I doubt the people who complain about Western Imperialism as the root cause of all ills in the Middle East are including the original ?Western Imperial power in their definition of Western Imperialism.

Well the original one would be the Greeks after Alexander's conquering spree and the breakup subsequent to his demise. You could argue they weren't imperial, but in that case Rome wasn't either, since the time period I suggested was the Roman Republic, not the Empire.

[Steely Glint]

Is it even meaningful to talk about 'the west' in this context?

[LittleFuzzy]

Is it even meaningful to talk about 'the west' in this context?

Maybe, maybe not. It's the original descriptor Hazir used though, and it's one reason I referenced Rome at all. Hazir didn't say "modern" or "contemporary," he said "western." And ancient Greece and Rome are generally considered the origin of "Western" civilization.

[Steely Glint]

I see.

Well, do let us know when you feel like conversing like an adult.

[LittleFuzzy]

I see.

Well, do let us know when you feel like conversing like an adult.

Sure. As soon as you feel like being something other than an uptight, obtuse, anti-intellectual, bandwagon-ing simpleton. And actually read the things I've said in the thread, rather than just seeing "Rome, durr."