Oh the Irony

[GGT]

People are angry. They should start confiscating property. Maybe have the military do it to show BP a lesson.

Yes, lots of people are angry. For various reasons. You sound angry, too.

[oldmunchkin]

People are angry. They should start confiscating property. Maybe have the military do it to show BP a lesson.

Fuckiing what???? Maybe BP deserves a spanking here, FFS! They have spilled millions of gallons of oil into the Gulf of Mexico, ruined countless beaches, ruined fishing/crabbing for years to come, and really fuckered up the unemployment rate in that area! Hmmm, yeah, maybe they need their ass kicked!

NOTE: This comes from the resident pro-oil, gas, mining forum idiot!

[Ominous Gamer]

Looks like Loki found the catnip


In before his standard "LAWL, OG made a drug reference!"

[Shipper]

Loki's point is that popular anger is a poor metric for determining the extent of the ass-kicking. Suing BP for redress is one thing. Coercing them is entirely another. The United States is founded on a tradition of rule of law, and the moment you begin jeopardizing that tradition is the moment you begin eroding the legal foundations of our society. Will manhandling BP place us on a slippery slope of decline? No, but it certainly establishes a dangerous precedent. The underlying principle is that property rights are subject to the whims and caprices of the masses - or, in other words, of the typical human being. This is not a suitable basis for government, and the architects of ours had precisely this idea in mind when they built it (which is why I blanch whenever I hear populists on the right implying that their attempts to directly channel the will of the electorate is somehow a continuation of or otherwise in line with the founders' work).

I'm probably as mad as you are, and I'd like to see BP pay through the nose. But I'd also like to see the process go through the proper channels. I'm aware of the anemic liability cap, but to me this suggests that the law should be amended, not ignored.

[GGT]

Loki's point is that popular anger is a poor metric for determining the extent of the ass-kicking.

Loki is using his own ass-kicking anger metric. He's mad at populist anger, he's mad at the gummint for 'interfering with business'. He just thinks his anger is more justified than anyone else's because he's a political scientist defending capitalism.

Suing BP for redress is one thing. Coercing them is entirely another.

We have a long tradition of carrots-and-sticks through negotiations, mediations, compromises, even bribes and threats. Happens every day in business board rooms, not to mention between lobbyists and legislators. Not every move made is done through a law suit (that's actually a horrible idea that only clogs courts and pays attorneys).

The United States is founded on a tradition of rule of law, and the moment you begin jeopardizing that tradition is the moment you begin eroding the legal foundations of our society. Will manhandling BP place us on a slippery slope of decline? No, but it certainly establishes a dangerous precedent.

Escrow accounts are perfectly legal. They're used every day in business transaction, real estate, and lending. Insurance premiums can be viewed as a type of escrow. Since bp is self-insured, and cash strong, there's nothing unseemly about a new escrow account, to be managed and implemented by a third party. That is not MANHANDLING BP, that's expecting them to create a pool of money reserved for the victims, since they didn't plan ahead for the worst case scenario.

The underlying principle is that property rights are subject to the whims and caprices of the masses - or, in other words, of the typical human being. This is not a suitable basis for government, and the architects of ours had precisely this idea in mind when they built it (which is why I blanch whenever I hear populists on the right implying that their attempts to directly channel the will of the electorate is somehow a continuation of or otherwise in line with the founders' work).

Our nation has property rights in the Gulf of Mexico. When private use conflicts with public health or safety, the national interest can override the individual (whether it's a multi-national corporation or a single person with beach-front property). The Gulf is one of our national treasures, and it's not just a right but a duty that our government protect that. That's not what I'd call a capricious whim of the masses....

[Hazir]

Loki is using his own ass-kicking anger metric. He's mad at populist anger,

And he values the rule of law, which you obviously don't care about.

[GGT]

And he values the rule of law, which you obviously don't care about.

Bull. Or did you just conveniently ignore the rest of my post about escrow accounts?

Some have even opined that it's within legal scope for the US to seize or freeze portions of bp's assets, and put them into conservatorship. IMO that would be going too far, even if it's "legal".

Federal and state funds have been used to pay all sorts of operations related to the gusher. It's legal and reasonable that Bp set up the escrow account as collateral toward future pay-outs, to reimburse tax payers. As I said earlier, it's also a good PR move on their part. I'm not happy about suspending dividends because I have bp stock, but that was also a business decision they made to repair their image.

[LittleFuzzy]

The underlying principle is that property rights are subject to the whims and caprices of the masses - or, in other words, of the typical human being.

Or perhaps on the scope of the damage they cause.

[oldmunchkin]

But who gets to determine the value of the loss of those property rights? Or the loss of the fishing boat captain/owner? Or the crabber? Or the motel who had all the cancellations? Or the dude who couldn't go for a walk on HIS beach this morning...the piece of beach-front property HE owns outright?

Do I have any actually stake in this...hell no! Am I still mad as hell, hell yes! FFS, Wyoming has it's own rig inspectors on top of the federal inspectors to make sure we don't have a huge disaster. Admittedly, we don't have a lot of "beach-front property" here, but an explosion/gusher could be a nasty environmental mess! Sitting here trying to think, but I think it has been 25+ years since we had a rig blow-out in Wyoming! Yeah, safety equipment can/is expensive, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than this fucking mess, ain't it?

Ok, just asked The Friend...he don't remember the last rig blow-out in Wyoming either...and he spent 20 years in the oil patch before going to trucking in the early 80's!

[Nessus]

But I'd also like to see the process go through the proper channels. I'm aware of the anemic liability cap, but to me this suggests that the law should be amended, not ignored.

Retroactively changing legislation also sounds like a pretty bad idea

Which just means that BP should get off no matter which way one looks at it, and Low-key seems to be upset that other people are allowed to be upset about that. Or something, he's been really irritable for the past couple weeks now.

[oldmunchkin]

Retroactively changing legislation also sounds like a pretty bad idea

Yup! But if this was a small, independent oil company that caused this shit, you can be sure they would be sued from here to next week!

Which just means that BP should get off no matter which way one looks at it, and Low-key seems to be upset that other people are allowed to be upset about that. Or something, he's been really irritable for the past couple weeks now.

Maybe Low-key is on the rag? Ok, that was possibly uncalled for and very sexist, sorry! BP fucked up, they should pay! They admitted they skimped on the cement or mud or whatever to keep the chances of a blow-out to a small risk. It was a "cost-cutting" "money saving" move on their part that, I hope. will prove damned costly for them! FFS, my friend and her husband who own a small water-drilling rig are inspected on a regular basis! Why the fuck wasn't/isn't BP? Big money? Bullshit! Make the cheap bastards pay out the nose for this mess!

[littlelolligagged]

"The gulf is one of our national treasures."




And that is coming from a beach bum who has spent a fairly decent chunk of her life in the gulf.

[GGT]

"The gulf is one of our national treasures."




And that is coming from a beach bum who has spent a fairly decent chunk of her life in the gulf.

Why is what I said haha funny?

[EyeKhan]

"The gulf is one of our national treasures."




And that is coming from a beach bum who has spent a fairly decent chunk of her life in the gulf.

Its a commons. All the oceans are a commons. That's why they're so roundly abused.

[Ominous Gamer]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...spill-bp-lying

The congressman, who has hounded BP on its handling of the crisis, said on Sunday's Meet the Press on NBC: "First they said it was 1,000 barrels, then they said it was 5,000 barrels, now we are up to 100,000 barrels."

[Aimless]

I have it!!

Constant and thorough and really really annoying oversight, and the company gets to pay for it.

[Ominous Gamer]

Seems like the right time to quote the man overseeing the $20 billion claims fund.

"We've got to get the claims out quicker, we've got to get them out with more transparency so claimants understand the status of their claim, and we've got to ease the burden on these folks in the Gulf," Kenneth Feinberg said.

Loki's trolling last night was vague enough, as we continue waiting for him to explain what laws or actions he was referring to. I was looking forward to Hazir explaining what payouts he has issue with, or how the $87 million in fines wasn't a sign that the government was expressing that there were rules to follow; but now he has gone and hidden behind the same line we are assuming Loki is using.

I do find it rather assuming that he celebrated the "do it or else" attitude of the EUC when it came to cellphone standards that were already going into place (that the EUC had no pull in), but is now attacking Obama for possibly using the same rhetoric againist BP.

[Hazir]

Seems like the right time to quote the man overseeing the $20 billion claims fund.



Loki's trolling last night was vague enough, as we continue waiting for him to explain what laws or actions he was referring to. I was looking forward to Hazir explaining what payouts he has issue with, or how the $87 million in fines wasn't a sign that the government was expressing that there were rules to follow; but now he has gone and hidden behind the same line we are assuming Loki is using.

I do find it rather assuming that he celebrated the "do it or else" attitude of the EUC when it came to cellphone standards that were already going into place (that the EUC had no pull in), but is now attacking Obama for possibly using the same rhetoric againist BP.

I don't really think there should be any cap to the liability of BP. My problem is that the legal system was shoved aside by the administration. The administration should consider itself to be subject to the law, not standing above it. If and when BP should pay out more than the proscribed $75m that should be on the basis of either settlements or court rulings. Not on the basis of the CEO of BP being summoned to the White House.

[GGT]

I don't really think there should be any cap to the liability of BP. My problem is that the legal system was shoved aside by the administration. The administration should consider itself to be subject to the law, not standing above it. If and when BP should pay out more than the proscribed $75m that should be on the basis of either settlements or court rulings. Not on the basis of the CEO of BP being summoned to the White House.

I still think you're assigning too much of Bp's actions to the White House. The fact that "their meeting" only took a couple of hours suggests the escrow account and dividend suspension was on Bp's priority list in the first place. Damage control and public perception effects their stock value, which they're careful to keep from plummeting. To people who didn't like it, they could "blame the strong hand of the gummint". That's a win/win for Bp.

You're also forgetting how long and protracted court proceedings can be. Exxon Valdez took twenty fucking years. Bp has been dragging its feet on legitimate claims, while fishermen and tourist centered businesses are tanking. SBA has set up mobile units to give them cheap short term loans, just so they can pay the light bill and their vessel notes. Whatever fee or interest rate they're charged should be billed to Bp.

You know, there's a reason Jindal didn't accept federal stimulus funds. Much of the LA port industry was self-sufficient, they didn't need or want federal money, they just wanted to fish and do what they'd been doing since the 1800s....are you now going to say the gummint shouldn't have suspended fishing in contaminated waters?

[GGT]

I wonder how the Dutch (or anyone else) would react to a huge US oil company drilling off their shores with the same type of gusher, and crude spewing into their water, killing fisheries and wildlife, contaminating beaches, spraying chemicals, wrecking their economies, etc.

[Hazir]

I wonder how the Dutch (or anyone else) would react to a huge US oil company drilling off their shores with the same type of gusher, and crude spewing into their water, killing fisheries and wildlife, contaminating beaches, spraying chemicals, wrecking their economies, etc.

Strangely enough, we think about these issues before we let those companies do their drilling. And we tend to enforce our environmental regulations quite stringently.

[Nessus]

Evil European Socialists (tm), still haven't learned their lessons, yada yada

[Hazir]

I don't think I assign too much of BP actions to the White House.

I'm also not convinced by your argument that the meeting only took a few hours. It took the Belgian and Dutch government a couple of hours to chop up Fortis, nationalize the Dutch parts and put the Belgian parts up for sale. A deal with an uncertain price-tag attached to it, but significantly higher than the BP escrow fund. In this case the action was legal, but while the deal was done the CEO of Fortis was waiting in the corridor to be told what his orders were.

I am definately not forgetting how long it can take to get your right in court, that however is not an argument to do away with courts and go in stead with the directives of the White House. For reasons of PR BP could also have come to settlements with aggrieved parties. What we have now is a grab bag $20bn big for the US government. We can only hope that the people who actually suffered damages due to this disaster will still find something in it once Uncle Sam has removed his sticky fingers from it.

[Ominous Gamer]

We can only hope that the people who actually suffered damages due to this disaster will still find something

To date, more than 65,000 claims have been submitted and more than 32,000 payments totaling more than $105 million have been made, the company said.

Its as if you aren't even paying attention to what is actually happening. You still haven't acknowledged that BP agreed to compenstation before the government got involved, and we're still waiting for some sort of source of these illegitimate claims or dissappearing funds you keep bitching about.

[GGT]

... It took the Belgian and Dutch government a couple of hours to chop up Fortis, nationalize the Dutch parts and put the Belgian parts up for sale. A deal with an uncertain price-tag attached to it, but significantly higher than the BP escrow fund. In this case the action was legal, but while the deal was done the CEO of Fortis was waiting in the corridor to be told what his orders were....

Hazir, the US doesn't operate like that. You want to see us act like Euros, with a formality and procedure attributed to your government and judiciary?

Is that why you think the White House was wrong, because your Euro business ethics are tied more toward government telling them what to do than ours....and a business making the same choice (but can't be attributed to government manipulation) is a foreign concept.....?

[GGT]

Then explain why Bp (apparently without any "shake down" from the White House) is trying to raise $50 billion. Gee, maybe it's a business decision and not coerced at all?

BP Raising $50 Billion to Pay for Oil Spill?
By Eric Rosenbaum 06/21/10


NEW YORK (TheStreet) -- BP(BP) is planning to raise $50 billion to cover its unquantifiable liabilities in the Gulf of Mexico oil spill, according to a reports. Last week, the first reports surfaced the BP would seek to tap the bond markets with a $5 billion to $10 billion debt deal. Over the weekend, London's Sunday Times reported that in addition to the debt deal, BP hopes to raise $20 billion from banks and $10 billion for asset sales over the next two years.

BP had said last week, when announcing its dividend suspension and $20 billion escrow account, that it would seek to divest as much as $10 billion in non-core assets as part of shoring up the balance sheet given the oil spill liabilities.

A BP spokesman declined to comment on the Sunday Times report. Between the $7 billion to $8 billion not being paid out in 2010 dividends, the $10 billion already announced by BP as part of planned asset sales, the $20 billion placed in the escrow account, and the reported bond deal, $50 billion related to the oil spill would already be attained without adding another $10 billion in asset sales or $20 billion in a bank facility.

BP shares were trading down in London by close to 4% on Monday.

Over the weekend, Rep. Ed Markey (D. Mass.), Capitol Hill point man on the BP oil spill, said that Congress would also be keeping a close eye on other companies linked to the oil spill, and making sure that companies including Anadarko Petroleum(APC) pay their portion of liabilities from the oil spill.

Anadarko's CEO James Hackett put out a statement after the market closed on Friday referring to BP's actions as "reckless" and seeking keep much of the blame -- and ostensibly the oil spill liability -- on the embattled British oil giant.

After the comments made by Anadarko, there were reports over the weekend that BP might pursue a lawsuit against its partner in the Macondo well. Anadarko owns 25% of the BP well.

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10787...oil-spill.html

[Ominous Gamer]

America, FUCK YEAH!

[GGT]

I don't really understand the disconnect here. People are bitching about the heavy hand of the gummint, or going outside the "legal system". This isn't like Toyota with some bad brakes, it's not like a tainted food or medicine that can be recalled, even though there are injured parties there. This isn't even like a dysfunctional financial system that can take down global trade but also be corrected.

This is about the ongoing contamination of a whole coastline, an entire ocean body, ecosystems and food chains, and a part of our country! It's almost too amazing that the repercussions haven't really hit people yet, and they just say to themselves, "They'll stop the gusher and clean it up eventually, write a bunch of checks. It's no big deal really, people should stop being emotional."

??? WTF ???

[GGT]

I could have put this in the other thread about oil, but Oh the Irony was just too much. I just heard about this on the news.....

NASA boss investigated for possible conflict of interest on biofuel project

Charlie Bolden asked Marathon Oil for its opinion on Project OMEGA — but he has financial interest in Marathon, which has a competing project
June 20, 2010|By Robert Block and Mark K. Matthews, Orlando Sentinel


While millions of barrels of spilled oil choke the Gulf of Mexico, NASA is working on an ocean-based biofuels venture that could revolutionize clean-energy production at sea and treat wastewater at the same time.

The scientist running the $10 million experiment, called Project OMEGA, uses words such as groundbreaking and exciting to describe his baby. But there's a hitch.

NASA Administrator Charlie Bolden doesn't believe in OMEGA — and has sought to slow it down.

The reason: He was advised against it by Marathon Oil — the Texas-based company on whose board Bolden sat until he was named NASA administrator last year. The former astronaut and Marine Corps general also still holds as much as $1 million worth of Marathon stock.

So far, the project is proceeding without any signs of obvious interference, according to scientists and officials. But Bolden's decision to vet OMEGA with a company in which he has a significant financial interest — and that also has invested in a competing biofuels proposal — has prompted an investigation by the NASA inspector general.

Bolden says he did nothing wrong, and his lawyers at NASA agree.

But government ethics watchdogs say Bolden should have steered clear of involvement with the project because of his ties to the industry and financial holdings.

"It definitely does not pass the smell test," said Melanie Sloan, executive director of Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics, who called Bolden's conversation "wholly inappropriate."

Bolden's action has infuriated the director of NASA's Ames Research Center in Mountain View, Calif., where the project is based. In an e-mail obtained by the Orlando Sentinel, Pete Worden, a former astronomy professor and retired Air Force general, angrily demanded an explanation.

"I think my folks are entitled to know who talked to Charlie and the basis of their criticism so we can respond. This is frankly the worst of NASA, and I don't like it. It is 'good ole boy' networks at its worst and not worthy of NASA and this administration," he wrote.

The controversy comes amid a time of unprecedented turmoil surrounding the agency, with the space shuttle retiring soon and the future of the human-spaceflight program caught in a tug of war between Congress and the administration. Privately, White House and congressional officials have expressed growing doubts about Bolden's judgment.

[Hazir]

Its as if you aren't even paying attention to what is actually happening. You still haven't acknowledged that BP agreed to compenstation before the government got involved, and we're still waiting for some sort of source of these illegitimate claims or dissappearing funds you keep bitching about.

If BP is really so happy about coughing up an undetermined amount of dollars; why the heavy handed approach by the Obama administration. If they were planning this all along why not simply a press statement of the White House telling us they had all trust in BP?

What I see now is a prime opportunity for the administration to grab as it wants out of that compensation. It wouldn't be the first time.

Hazir, the US doesn't operate like that. You want to see us act like Euros, with a formality and procedure attributed to your government and judiciary?

Is that why you think the White House was wrong, because your Euro business ethics are tied more toward government telling them what to do than ours....and a business making the same choice (but can't be attributed to government manipulation) is a foreign concept.....?

Oh, I didn't know that rule of law was something only we 'euros' believed in. Thanks for setting me right.