The Bad Apples of Baltimore

[Loki]

Specific officers who have done specific things should be held accountable. Painting all police with the same brush is no different than painting all blacks with the same brush.

Did you actually read anything in this thread? It's not individual officers who were guilty of wrong-doing; it's the entire freaking department, going from officers patrolling the streets to high ranking officers. We're talking about a rotten department culture that actually promotes this kind of behavior. This going back to the article I cited before by a black cop who said 15% of officers are good no matter what, 15% are bad no matter what, and 70% could turn out either way based on department culture. Do the math about how many bad apples there are in Baltimore (none of whom have been punished yet by the way).

[Aimless]

To dismiss alternative viewpoints on the subject matter shows a lack of wisdom and judgement. To pretend or believe that a thread shall only involve the exact narrow subject covered by the title only and not related viewpoints and drift would show a lack of experience.

You'd have more of a point if the very first reply had not been an irrelevant tangent--to the subject indicated by both the title and by the content of the opening post--that didn't acknowledge with even a single sentence the key points made in the DoJ's report. That's not thread-drift, it's just dumb kneejerk partisanship.

[RandBlade]

Even if this were true rather than being laughably false, it has little to do with Lewk's comment or my response to it. Since you seem to be having some difficulties reading today, allow me to remind you of what Lewk said:

It's not laughably false and it was only said because you continued your victimwhinefest "Muslims are mistreated" bollocks in that post I quoted.

Tell me what part of Lewk's comment you disagree with. You think it's acceptable to paint all police with the same brush, or you think it is acceptable to paint all blacks with the same brush?

[RandBlade]

Did you actually read anything in this thread? It's not individual officers who were guilty of wrong-doing; it's the entire freaking department, going from officers patrolling the streets to high ranking officers. We're talking about a rotten department culture that actually promotes this kind of behavior. This going back to the article I cited before by a black cop who said 15% of officers are good no matter what, 15% are bad no matter what, and 70% could turn out either way based on department culture. Do the math about how many bad apples there are in Baltimore (none of whom have been punished yet by the way).

So hold them to account now that this report has come out. If it is 85% that are bad then hold them to account, it still won't be 100% though.

[Loki]

A) No one's claiming all cops are bad. Massive strawman.
B) Comparing ethnic/racial groups to government departments is insane. Let's say 10% of blacks were criminals. Would it be fair to call blacks (in general) criminals)? Now let's say 10% of district attorneys were corrupt. Would it be fair to call district attorney offices corrupt?
C) To add to the previous point, which of the two should the government be more concerned with: 10% of blacks being criminals or 10% of district attorneys being corrupt?

So hold them to account now that this report has come out. If it is 85% that are bad then hold them to account, it still won't be 100% though.

Are you just trolling here? Has any sane person ever claimed that 100% of cops were bad? The claim was that there aren't just a few bad apples. How you go from there to claiming anyone said 100% of police officers is beyond me.

[Khendraja'aro]

How you go from there to claiming anyone said 100% of police officers is beyond me.

Easy: Naivety.

[RandBlade]

A) No one's claiming all cops are bad. Massive strawman.

People are objecting to Lewk's comments about "painting all police with the same brush". So yes all was raised.

B) Comparing ethnic/racial groups to government departments is insane. Let's say 10% of blacks were criminals. Would it be fair to call blacks (in general) criminals)? Now let's say 10% of district attorneys were corrupt. Would it be fair to call district attorney offices corrupt?

No and no.

C) To add to the previous point, which of the two should the government be more concerned with: 10% of blacks being criminals or 10% of district attorneys being corrupt?

Both. On an individual level the corrupt DA is more concenring, on an aggregate level it is hard to tell.

Are you just trolling here? Has any sane person ever claimed that 100% of cops were bad? The claim was that there aren't just a few bad apples. How you go from there to claiming anyone said 100% of police officers is beyond me.

If you object to a claim that "painting all police with the same brush" is wrong, then yes you are de facto claiming 100% of police officers are bad.

[Lewkowski]

Did you actually read anything in this thread? It's not individual officers who were guilty of wrong-doing; it's the entire freaking department, going from officers patrolling the streets to high ranking officers. We're talking about a rotten department culture that actually promotes this kind of behavior. This going back to the article I cited before by a black cop who said 15% of officers are good no matter what, 15% are bad no matter what, and 70% could turn out either way based on department culture. Do the math about how many bad apples there are in Baltimore (none of whom have been punished yet by the way).

I'm failing to see the point. There are places that are corrupt, if the level reached illegal levels they should prosecute. However this universal "police are bad because they profile blacks" is wrong and worsens the situation. Why do you think the murder rate rose after the BLM protests occurred in the city? I actually do think there needs to be more done to make policing better, I'm in favor of body cams which will make it easier to prosecute when someone truly does something wrong. If Darren Wilson for example had a body cam there wouldn't have been any doubt for the liberal narrative to exploit. (Any honest look at the situation makes it clear Michael Brown was a thug who assault Wilson).

Frankly I'm curious as to why all of this 'police are anti-black' hasn't spread to 'police are anti-male.' Is it because 'male' isn't a protected class?

[RandBlade]

I'd be curious to see what percentage of people that get shot by the police are male. I suspect it may be over 50% ...

[Aimless]

It's not laughably false and it was only said because you continued your victimwhinefest "Muslims are mistreated" bollocks in that post I quoted.

Tell me what part of Lewk's comment you disagree with. You think it's acceptable to paint all police with the same brush, or you think it is acceptable to paint all blacks with the same brush?

It's laughably false to the point of being dumb, but the point was not about mistreatment but about broadbrushing based on the actions of a few--which you'd have understood if it hadn't been for, well, whatever it is that's responsible for your performance in this and recent discussions.

To answer your question, I believe it is more appropriate to hold law enforcement as a whole accountable for the actions of a few than to hold all black people or all Muslims accountable for the same.

Police represent a vital institution whose credibility is crucial to its proper functioning. The police also have a lot more power than ordinary black and/or Muslim people and have far greater legal immunity, in practice. For these reasons, among others, police should be held to a higher standard.

The police are also organized in a way that most ordinary people are not, such that police in leadership roles have greater formal responsibility for their actions, the actions they encourage their subordinates to engage in and the actions they countenance. Regular cops work together and have a legal as well as ethical duty to uphold the letter and the spirit of the law, thus sharing more responsibility for those actions of so-called "bad apples" that they tolerate, support or encourage.

In some parts of the US, various degrees of police asshattery of the kinds described in the DoJ's report on Baltimore (and Ferguson, previously) is endemic, apparently tolerated or encouraged by peers and superiors and rarely punished to any meaningful extent, making it extremely difficult to distinguish "bad apples" from good ones and more appropriate to assume that a random cop in eg. Baltimore is complicit in the asshattery of the BPD.

For the foregoing reasons, it is more appropriate to paint cops with a broad brush and to hold them accountable--as a group--for their many ethical and professional failures than it is to do the same with ordinary black people and Muslims. That said, a person who believes it's completely inappropriate in principle to broadbrush any group based on the actions of a few of its members should probably strive for greater consistency.

[Lewkowski]

I'd be curious to see what percentage of people that get shot by the police are male. I suspect it may be over 50% ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ice-shootings/

948 compared to 42. I'm wondering if we'll see a Male Lives Matter march happening soon.

[RandBlade]

96% of shooting victims are male? Surely we already have MLM?

[Aimless]

That tracker is so depressing. 50 fatal shootings in which there was no attack in progress AND the victim was reported as being unarmed. Twice as likely for black and Hispanic victims than for white ones of course.

[RandBlade]

Twice as likely?

What's the ratio for male and female ones?

[Aimless]

Twice as likely?

What's the ratio for male and female ones?

Around 4.7% (2) of all female victims and around 5% (48) of all male victims were unarmed and not attacking. This doesn't account for those whose threat-level was reported as "undetermined". One of the two women was white, the other black. 26 of the female victims were reported as being white and 10 as being black. Unlike data presented elsewhere on unjustified police use of force (where it was shown that being a black woman sucks more than being a white woman) the events in this dataset are too few to say anything meaningful about the relative importance of gender and race wrt the police killings of unarmed apparently not-attacking people. However, if you nevertheless wish to wring meaning out of it then men are 0.3% more likely than women to be killed by cops despite being unarmed and not attacking. Make of that what you will. I'm a little surprised.

[Loki]

Rand, so your argument is because blacks are statistically more likely to commit crimes, the police should feel free to mistreat all black people?

[Lewkowski]

Around 4.7% (2) of all female victims and around 5% (48) of all male victims were unarmed and not attacking. This doesn't account for those whose threat-level was reported as "undetermined". One of the two women was white, the other black. 26 of the female victims were reported as being white and 10 as being black. Unlike data presented elsewhere on unjustified police use of force (where it was shown that being a black woman sucks more than being a white woman) the events in this dataset are too few to say anything meaningful about the relative importance of gender and race wrt the police killings of unarmed apparently not-attacking people. However, if you nevertheless wish to wring meaning out of it then men are 0.3% more likely than women to be killed by cops despite being unarmed and not attacking. Make of that what you will. I'm a little surprised.

Yes but men are far more likely than woman to be stopped and searched. That's what leads to the violent confrontation, if police would practice gender quotas we would have a lot less violence! The daily harassment that men have to face simply for being a man is inexcusable. Walking while male should not be a crime!

[GGT]

The DOJ report showed how one (black) man had been stopped by police several times a week, for years, without any charges....and I wondered if the "stop and frisk" method of policing was to blame. Then I read about the (black) woman who was commanded to strip, and anally searched, on a public sidewalk in broad day-light, for a traffic violation....and my jaw dropped!

This goes way beyond failed SOP police methods or tactics, and falls into the category of corruption, because things like this just don't happen without some tacit approval from leadership.

[Flixy]

.
If you object to a claim that "painting all police with the same brush" is wrong, then yes you are de facto claiming 100% of police officers are bad.

No, I'm not. I just think it's laughably stupid to pretend this is just a compilation of officer's individual mistakes that should be punished. What I say is, as does all the evidence, that the organisation is rotten, this is institutional failure, not individual. And as long as the organization is rotten it is fair to paint the whole organization as such without claiming every individual officer is bad.

The way of deflecting it to individual mistakes that should be punished keeps you from fixing the systemic problems. You'll be fighting the symptoms not the root cause.

Oh and it's pretty laughable to hear we should paint all police with the same brush, from someone who feels it's fine to harass and violate the rights of people as long as they are black. And let's not even get started about painting liberals worth the same brush.

[LittleFuzzy]

I'm not sure I understand how you are ascribing that position to Lewk based on what he's posted in this thread.

As near as I can tell his position is that that behavior needs to be punished and stop.

Lewk can spout that all he wants when it's abstract, but the sentiment has very little follow-through when it comes to actual encounters.

[LittleFuzzy]

I'm failing to see the point. There are places that are corrupt, if the level reached illegal levels they should prosecute. However this universal "police are bad because they profile blacks" is wrong and worsens the situation.

You don't have a problem with following any Muslims around just for being Muslim, tailing them to their places of worship, listening to their conversations, etc. The percentage of Muslims in the US engaged in terrorist attacks is lower than the percentage of officers engaged in race-related bad policing, so logically you should be calling for us to follow all police to their churches and their confessionals, surveill them while they play some scrimmage football and coach Little League, and stop them randomly on the streets when one suspects they're considering another bit of bad policing. Right?

[RandBlade]

No, I'm not. I just think it's laughably stupid to pretend this is just a compilation of officer's individual mistakes that should be punished. What I say is, as does all the evidence, that the organisation is rotten, this is institutional failure, not individual. And as long as the organization is rotten it is fair to paint the whole organization as such without claiming every individual officer is bad.

The way of deflecting it to individual mistakes that should be punished keeps you from fixing the systemic problems. You'll be fighting the symptoms not the root cause.

Oh and it's pretty laughable to hear we should paint all police with the same brush, from someone who feels it's fine to harass and violate the rights of people as long as they are black. And let's not even get started about painting liberals worth the same brush.

Are you referring to Lewk? Because I am a liberal and oppose harassing and violating the rights of blacks

[RandBlade]

Rand, so your argument is because blacks are statistically more likely to commit crimes, the police should feel free to mistreat all black people?

No, absolutely not! No more than the police should feel free to mistreat all male people.

[RandBlade]

Around 4.7% (2) of all female victims and around 5% (48) of all male victims were unarmed and not attacking. This doesn't account for those whose threat-level was reported as "undetermined". One of the two women was white, the other black. 26 of the female victims were reported as being white and 10 as being black. Unlike data presented elsewhere on unjustified police use of force (where it was shown that being a black woman sucks more than being a white woman) the events in this dataset are too few to say anything meaningful about the relative importance of gender and race wrt the police killings of unarmed apparently not-attacking people. However, if you nevertheless wish to wring meaning out of it then men are 0.3% more likely than women to be killed by cops despite being unarmed and not attacking. Make of that what you will. I'm a little surprised.

Seems to me from your figures that 24 times as many male victims were unarmed and not attacking than female ones. Given the gender ratio is roughly 50-50 that implies men are 24 times as likely to be a victim ...

[Aimless]

Seems to me from your figures that 24 times as many male victims were unarmed and not attacking than female ones. Given the gender ratio is roughly 50-50 that implies men are 24 times as likely to be a victim ...

The gender ratio in society at large is indeed approximately 1:1 but that is not the case in the universe of people who are shot by police.