Why do you think the murder rate is rising in Baltimore?

[Lewkowski]

And? I teach physics and chemistry. I can teach you shitloads of "common use words" and "common knowledge" which have either serious issues or are flat-out wrong.

I call such an argument: "The lazy moron's defense."

And citing some guy from some newspaper doesn't make your usage in any way valid. There are countless examples where some journalist or other doesn't really fully comprehend what he's writing about.

Words are a form of communication. If it is CLEAR (and it is) what the intent is behind the statement because the word is commonly used that way only someone who would rather nitpick than have a real discussion will bring it up. If enough people use a word a certain way - that is the definition of the word. Language is highly malleable, just look at all of the words that get added to dictionaries every year.

[Lewkowski]

What about somebody who not only enables and pays to have someone kidnapped, but then goes onto enslave that person for the rest of their life, often times subjecting them to brutal treatment, harsh conditions, and perhaps even rape? What about people who riot in the streets, don disguises, and steal and/or destroy private property? Moral voids of filth or founding fathers?

I've long said it - there is no middle ground when it comes to violence against government. Either you do it because you are in full fledged revolt or you don't do it all. Using violence in anything short or a revolt is morally unacceptable. (With obvious exceptions such as preventing theft, self defense etc).

[Enoch the Red]

I've long said it - there is no middle ground when it comes to violence against government. Either you do it because you are in full fledged revolt or you don't do it all. Using violence in anything short or a revolt is morally unacceptable. (With obvious exceptions such as preventing theft, self defense etc).

So we'll just gloss over slavery altogether then? Look, if you believe that one act defines a person for the rest of their life, (and what good Christian doesn't) then I think it mighty strange to idolize people who owned other people.

By the by, the Boston Tea Party took place before open rebellion. In short, it and its perpetrators are moral cesspools for all eternity.

[Lewkowski]

So we'll just gloss over slavery altogether then? Look, if you believe that one act defines a person for the rest of their life, (and what good Christian doesn't) then I think it mighty strange to idolize people who owned other people.

By the by, the Boston Tea Party took place before open rebellion. In short, it and its perpetrators are moral cesspools for all eternity.

You can be in rebellion prior to an 'official start.' And I'm talking about motivations here. If someone does in fact repent and they are no longer part of that moral cesspit... they wouldn't be doing further crimes anyway. I'm talking about the people who are in actual danger of doing crimes. Those who don't have that moral compass will only respond to one thing - deterrence.

[Khendraja'aro]

Words are a form of communication. If it is CLEAR (and it is) what the intent is behind the statement because the word is commonly used that way only someone who would rather nitpick than have a real discussion will bring it up. If enough people use a word a certain way - that is the definition of the word. Language is highly malleable, just look at all of the words that get added to dictionaries every year.

No, dude, it is not clear. You are constantly misinterpreting and misunderstanding (either willfully or due to sheer stupidity) how deterrence works. That you now try to throw other preventative effects into the mix (again, weather is not deterrence) only shows that you have no effin' clue what you're talking about. This is about psychology which is a science. And scientific topics have very specific meanings to some words.

Of course you can always try to turn this into amateur hour. However, until you've made the effort to clean up your act and use words properly, your arguments will be laughed at time and again. You can now proceed to try the moronic "ivory tower" argument again. And I don't really care what morons like you are turning language into.

[RandBlade]

You can be in rebellion prior to an 'official start.' And I'm talking about motivations here. If someone does in fact repent and they are no longer part of that moral cesspit... they wouldn't be doing further crimes anyway. I'm talking about the people who are in actual danger of doing crimes. Those who don't have that moral compass will only respond to one thing - deterrence.

But they weren't in rebellion yet, it isn't a matter of semantics the rebellion hadn't started. They were protesting at that stage and the rebellion could have been avoided.

[Lewkowski]

No, dude, it is not clear. You are constantly misinterpreting and misunderstanding (either willfully or due to sheer stupidity) how deterrence works. That you now try to throw other preventative effects into the mix (again, weather is not deterrence) only shows that you have no effin' clue what you're talking about. This is about psychology which is a science. And scientific topics have very specific meanings to some words.

Of course you can always try to turn this into amateur hour. However, until you've made the effort to clean up your act and use words properly, your arguments will be laughed at time and again. You can now proceed to try the moronic "ivory tower" argument again. And I don't really care what morons like you are turning language into.

The point isn't complex. If a person is a piece of filth with no moral code (Ie willing to rob, murder, rape, kidnap etc etc) than moral arguments will NEVER sway them. In that case there are just benefits and costs. Costs can be in the hassle of doing something (its cold outside) or the fear of consequences either form the state or from the would be victim. That's it.

[Ominous Gamer]

fear of consequences either form the state

If your big bad evil doer doesn't see the legitimacy in the justice system, there is no fear of consequences. They either see a system thats going to catch up to them sooner or later and find some reason to ruin their life (so they might as well get theirs first), or a system that can be played and will not result in a consequence. We are what... 30 replies into that train of thought and you still haven't made the connection? Thats a new low even for you.

[Loki]

Lewk, why do you think we're the murder capital of the first world? We have by far the most severe punishments for murder.

[Lewkowski]

Lewk, why do you think we're the murder capital of the first world? We have by far the most severe punishments for murder.

There are a number of reasons including the prevalence of guns, gang culture, being right next door to the murder capital of the third world, soft on many other types of crimes (you can get probation for robbery for example), the war on drugs which makes it profitable to sell drugs, liberal cult of victim-hood that also ties in with ridiculous expectations for how the world should work (everyone gets a trophy, everyone deserves x).

[Lewkowski]

Lewk, why do you think we're the murder capital of the first world? We have by far the most severe punishments for murder.

There are a number of reasons including the prevalence of guns, gang culture, being right next door to the murder capital of the third world, soft on many other types of crimes (you can get probation for robbery for example), the war on drugs which makes it profitable to sell drugs, liberal cult of victim-hood that also ties in with ridiculous expectations for how the world should work (everyone gets a trophy, everyone deserves x).

[GGT]

In other words, Lewk started this thread with a pre-conceived idea about why Baltimore's murder rate is rising, but can't back it up with facts when challenged.

[Lewkowski]

In other words, Lewk started this thread with a pre-conceived idea about why Baltimore's murder rate is rising, but can't back it up with facts when challenged.

Did you bother reading the thread? Most of the thread has been a tangent.

[GGT]

Did you bother reading the thread? Most of the thread has been a tangent.

You began by saying police weren't getting their due respect.....

[GGT]

I've never much bought the whole idea that people don't kill people because of the "legitimacy of the legal system." That isn't a thought that goes through the head of a would be murderer.

I'm more willing to entertain the idea that the less cooperation with police is playing a factor as well as police officers doing less policing (for a number of reasons).

[RandBlade]

There are a number of reasons including the prevalence of guns, gang culture, being right next door to the murder capital of the third world, soft on many other types of crimes (you can get probation for robbery for example), the war on drugs which makes it profitable to sell drugs, liberal cult of victim-hood that also ties in with ridiculous expectations for how the world should work (everyone gets a trophy, everyone deserves x).

You think the USA is more liberal than every nation in Europe?

[Lewkowski]

You think the USA is more liberal than every nation in Europe?

Being liberal and being part of the liberal cult of victim-hood are two separate things. I actually don't know enough about Europe to say if they have the same leftist position that if you are a minority everyone is out to get you. I'm not sure if your major politicians pander so heavily to groups of people like the Democrats do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwmI8JcVJ8E

If you are told all of your life that the only reason you succeed is due to the 'system' you will never realize that most often YOU are responsible for your successes and failures. Without that critical element in realizing that yes, you need to get to work on time, yes you should be learning things at school, yes you need to be respectful to others and yes you should actually work for a living you get an entire under class of people certain that they could be rich and successful if only the white man wasn't keeping them down. Add to that a culture that glorifies gang life, mix in guns (which should be legal but I'm not silly enough not to see the correlation) and you have a recipe for a high murder rate.

[Steely Glint]

ITT I learned that the high murder rate in Baltimore is because of Mexico.

Also the high crime rate in London is due to it's proximity to the chaotic situation in Libya.

[Loki]

There are a number of reasons including the prevalence of guns

Even if you exclude gun homicides, we still have a higher murder rate.

gang culture

Why do American gangs kill each other at a higher rate than non-American gangs? Shouldn't they be deterred by the tougher punishments here?

being right next door to the murder capital of the third world

We had the same murder rate before Mexico became the murder capital of the world.

soft on many other types of crimes (you can get probation for robbery for example)

Softer than the Europeans? Really?

the war on drugs which makes it profitable to sell drugs

Because drugs only exist in the US?

liberal cult of victim-hood that also ties in with ridiculous expectations for how the world should work (everyone gets a trophy, everyone deserves x).

You think this makes sense as a cause of crime but not the perceived illegitimacy of the legal system? And you think the Europeans are more individualistic than Americans?

[Lewkowski]

Are you actually forming a coherent argument or are you just countering every thing I say? Because multiple items overlap. You argue that if you exclude gun homicide rates we still have a higher rate, is your purpose here to say that gun ownership rates have no impact on murder rate? Or are you just making a blind point.

Gang culture has lots of elements to it. Do you think gang membership is more or less prevalent than in Europe?

So is your argument that sharing a porous border with a violent third world country has no impact on the murder rate?

I couldn't tell you all the ins and outs of Euro punishments. But I can tell you in America you can go to prison longer for having drugs than if you robbed a gas station.

Drugs exist everywhere but in America we've made it more profitable with all the money and effort we've made to criminalize it. This has led to international cartels to invest heavily in drug distribution. Do you think that has no impact on the murder rate?

Absolutely, the perceived 'illegitimacy of the legal system' is very different than the cult of victim hood. While you could argue some overlap in the thought process the though process of the legal system isn't for justice therefore I don't need to concern myself with obeying laws is a liberal figment of the imagination. People don't think like that. While people do think 'I deserve the best because everyone from grade school, to the media, to little league says I am special, unique and awesome, if I don't get instant success and happiness I need to TAKE it! Don't they know who I am? I'm special!' The whole concept that you are not just one of the masses, that you 'matter' is what leads to resentment, anger and violence. And again I'm not an expert on Europe so I couldn't tell you.

All that being said - why do you think murder happens more often in America than elsewhere? I'm going to laugh if some of your same reasons are ones you are trying to poke holes with when I use them. I think you like to be contrary than actually representing what you actually think.

[Khendraja'aro]

The point isn't complex. If a person is a piece of filth with no moral code (Ie willing to rob, murder, rape, kidnap etc etc) than moral arguments will NEVER sway them. In that case there are just benefits and costs. Costs can be in the hassle of doing something (its cold outside) or the fear of consequences either form the state or from the would be victim. That's it.

That's not how it works. Not at all. Then again, we already established that you're clueless.

[Lewkowski]

That's not how it works. Not at all. Then again, we already established that you're clueless.

Yes it is. Yes it is how it works.

Now, how productive was that?

[Steely Glint]

About as productive as any attempt to have a discussion with you.

[Aimless]

People don't think like that. While people do think 'I deserve the best because everyone from grade school, to the media, to little league says I am special, unique and awesome, if I don't get instant success and happiness I need to TAKE it! Don't they know who I am? I'm special!' The whole concept that you are not just one of the masses, that you 'matter' is what leads to resentment, anger and violence. And again I'm not an expert on Europe so I couldn't tell you.

Man I'd really like to see some numbers on how many black criminal gang members heard that growing up in the hood because it sounds like bullshit

[Loki]

Are you actually forming a coherent argument or are you just countering every thing I say? Because multiple items overlap. You argue that if you exclude gun homicide rates we still have a higher rate, is your purpose here to say that gun ownership rates have no impact on murder rate? Or are you just making a blind point.

Gang culture has lots of elements to it. Do you think gang membership is more or less prevalent than in Europe?

So is your argument that sharing a porous border with a violent third world country has no impact on the murder rate?

I couldn't tell you all the ins and outs of Euro punishments. But I can tell you in America you can go to prison longer for having drugs than if you robbed a gas station.

Drugs exist everywhere but in America we've made it more profitable with all the money and effort we've made to criminalize it. This has led to international cartels to invest heavily in drug distribution. Do you think that has no impact on the murder rate?

Absolutely, the perceived 'illegitimacy of the legal system' is very different than the cult of victim hood. While you could argue some overlap in the thought process the though process of the legal system isn't for justice therefore I don't need to concern myself with obeying laws is a liberal figment of the imagination. People don't think like that. While people do think 'I deserve the best because everyone from grade school, to the media, to little league says I am special, unique and awesome, if I don't get instant success and happiness I need to TAKE it! Don't they know who I am? I'm special!' The whole concept that you are not just one of the masses, that you 'matter' is what leads to resentment, anger and violence. And again I'm not an expert on Europe so I couldn't tell you.

All that being said - why do you think murder happens more often in America than elsewhere? I'm going to laugh if some of your same reasons are ones you are trying to poke holes with when I use them. I think you like to be contrary than actually representing what you actually think.

If each of your points is wrong in isolation, they're not magically going to combine for a correct whole. And I have less problems with some of those individual arguments than with the fact that they're completely inconsistent with the deterrence logic that you always use as the best predictor of crime.

There isn't a single explanation for the vastly different murder rates. Access to cheap illegal guns certainly helps, but that's only part of the picture. Individual and group-level inequality contribute to the problem. But ultimately, a majority of the crime is taking place in segregated communities where respect for the law runs from low to non-existence, cooperation with cops is even lower, and social norms about killing people ebb and flow with economic incentives, policing, and interaction with the representatives of society (namely the police, judicial system, and political elites). And if you don't think that publicized shootings of unarmed blacks, even those who might have been up to no good, isn't going to affect this problem from multiple angles at once, well, good luck explaining the increase in violent crime in those same cities.

Man I'd really like to see some numbers on how many black criminal gang members heard that growing up in the hood because it sounds like bullshit

Yeah, Lewk seems to be explaining the massive hipster crime wave.

[Aimless]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...loody-lie.html

Goddamn' entitled millennial hipster s o b...

[Aimless]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...s-he-died.html

Cops

are

AWESOME

[Lewkowski]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...s-he-died.html

Cops

are

AWESOME

That is a pretty disturbing story and I do hope the police and the medical staff there get the book slammed on them. That was beyond just negligence and those people should wind up in prison themselves.

I do think there is room for reform - don't get me wrong about that. I support universal body cams and I think criminal penalties should be assessed if they are ever turned off voluntarily. Not all cops are good guys, just like in every profession. Heck name a profession and I could find a story about how someone in that profession did something awful. From priests, judges, politicians, lawyers, police, doctors and CEOs. Every group of people or profession has their share of scum.

[Aimless]

Things like this happen when you have an organisation full of scumbags and a pervasive culture of shittiness. Not only are scumbags overrepresented in law-enforcement, they're also allowed to act with impunity with the support or at least the tacit approval of their slightly less scummy colleagues.

[LittleFuzzy]

I think that at this point it's clear the rate is rising because crime is increasing as people and businesses are impoverished by trying to prevent theft in ways that cost more that are hundreds or thousands of times more expensive than the losses from theft itself.