It's easy to describe a meter to aliens. Since it's based on a universal constant. You also don't use stuff like "revolutions of the Earth" since those are not constants.Originally Posted by Illusions
Aliens which actually managed to travel here will most certainly also use universal constants as their zero-points.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Its defined as the distance light travels in a certain fraction of a second. A second being 1/86,400 of a day, or one revolution of the Earth about its axis. So while it is based on a universal constant (the speed of light in vacuum), part of it is not (revolution of one particular planet about its axis of rotation). Going as far as a non-arbitrary description like Nessus mentioned, its the spread between two finger-tips, which is equally unhelpful to an entity unable to observe Earth or its inhabitants on a fine enough scale.
In fact, if this task is so easy, describe a meter to me in a manner that does not rely on knowledge that would be unique or only observable on Earth.
...again, used in defining what a meter is, since it includes seconds, and seconds are based off of "revolutions of the Earth".You also don't use stuff like "revolutions of the Earth" since those are not constants.
Being unable to accurately measure the revolution of our planet about its axis of rotation would indicate that they have not traveled here. Again, speed of light in vacuum while a universal constant, does not mean that a meter is as well, since it uses non-universal constants (seconds) in its definition.Aliens which actually managed to travel here will most certainly also use universal constants as their zero-points.
Last edited by Illusions; 12-21-2011 at 10:42 PM.
. . .
Most of the SI units are sensible for describing everyday things even if I cannot use my body as a good proxy for most of them, and for instance I would personally prefer metric time but Communism collapsed before they could correct the Earth's rotation... What's the std of meter vs. average step and foot vs. average foot? That's how I visualize a meter. And the separation between your finger-tips with arms held out to the sides is also a rough approximation; I have a hard time visualizing distances as multiples of my own foot as that isn't how human locomotion actually works. You just develop a back-bone for these things. That SI is also nicely usable for things scientific is a bonus, really, but it also lowers the barrier of entry between common day experience and science. Of course for example I tend to use things like electron volts in casual conversation, but the principle is the same and I can roughly work out the conversion between macroscopic energies and keV.
I'm not sure how you'd define non-arbitrary measures without first creating the new Soviet man who in addition to ideological purity always grew into the same physical dimensions. Seems like a lot of hassle to me.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I think there's actually worthwhile points on both sides. As an engineer/scientists of course I use SI for work, and as an American I'm pretty well versed in conversions between SI and US units. But I do find some US units more useful than SI units for everyday things like cooking. The equivalent volume in mL for various cup-size amounts is kinda ridiculous (and unnecessarily precise); small amounts (e.g. tablespoons, teaspoons) are readily scaled into larger amounts in the US system but not SI units, cm are often unnecessarily fine for estimation but dm are too coarse, etc. For certain kinds of everyday measurements, US units end up being more likely to be integer numbers or simple fractions compared to SI units. That's not true of something arbitrary like miles vs. km, but it is true for things like volumes. Pounds and ounces are often more useful than kg and g as well, though not always.
I understand why countries shifted over wholesale to metric, and I think it makes sense. But it's not always inherently superior for all activities.
Actually, seconds can be defined in terms of the radioactive decay of atoms, which (we think) is a universal constant. That being said, this discussion is pointless. The meter (and second) didn't used to be based on constants, nor were the foot and associated imperial units. But now they have defined conversions, so either one can be expressed in terms of universal constants. There's no advantage between one and another from that perspective. The relative advantage of SI units is that magnitude conversions are very straightforward and that certain constants are convenient (things like the convenient density of water at roughly room temperature). The relative advantage of imperial units is that at times the base units are more useful for certain everyday measurements; hardly all, but some.
On the balance of things, the SI system is undeniably superior in terms of utility. But given competing unit systems in places where both exist (like the US), it's often useful to pick and choose.
All discussions are pointless as human beings are fundamentally unable to relate to one another, and all that is left for us is awaiting our personal deaths and on a generation scale the death of ourselves as a species. *shrug*
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
It's not a "fundamental" problem, but it IS a communication problem, Nessie.
One of my friends put her bag of yeast culture, meant to create yummy sourdough breads, on top of her fridge. But she didn't tell her cleaning lady it was an important science or baking project. Cleaning lady promptly threw the bag (full of future loaves of bread, plus the starter yeast) in the trash, because it looked like a bag full of expired gravy, or a forgotten baggie on top of the fridge.
Communication Errors don't mean humans are fundamentally unable to relate to/with one another.
Nor did I say they did.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
A statement made prior to me having information on your friend's plight, which through causality would suggest my statement was not motivated by said plight.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
You clearly stated that "all discussions are pointless as human beings are fundamentally unable to relate to one another". *Shrugging* doesn't mean you can turn that into a meaningful discussion. Not if you think "all discussions are pointless". Make up your mind.
That is a different position than your original one, which presented a physical impossibility. That is not a conversational issue, it's an ontological one.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I've never presented any physical impediment to mean human communications are impossible. And this IS a conversational issue, as much as we're having conversations on a forum. Where you "said":
I disagree(d) with your statement. NO discussions are pointless, and human beings are NOT fundamentally unable to relate to one another. That's an absurd and outrageous statement. Pumping that into "awaiting our deaths as individuals or as a species" is even more absurd and preposterous. Saying that Death is all that's left for us goes well beyond nihilism.All discussions are pointless as human beings are fundamentally unable to relate to one another, and all that is left for us is awaiting our personal deaths and on a generation scale the death of ourselves as a species. *shrug*
Your initial response to my statement was a singular anecdote about your personal life (or rather the personal life of a near-by person, but never mind). You presented this as an occasion mis-intepreted as an example of a fundamental break-down of human communication, or so it seemed. Given that I had no way of knowing about this particular human experience at the time I made my statement you were responding to, you seem to be suggesting that causality was somehow violated, as in order for your initial response to make any sort of sense, that singular example would have to be the basis of my statement. I am arguing that this is a physical impossibility.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
While you knew full well that our own (very recent) personal communication "breakdown" wasn't exemplary of ALL human mis-communication? Nice try?
Not really. The "basis" of your statements don't seem to connect to anyone else, let alone their 'human experiences. That's not a physical impossibility at all, given the internet age. You chose this thread to explain your Nihilism? A thread in General Chat about what to do with buttermilk? Really?Given that I had no way of knowing about this particular human experience at the time I made my statement you were responding to, you seem to be suggesting that causality was somehow violated, as in order for your initial response to make any sort of sense, that singular example would have to be the basis of my statement. I am arguing that this is a physical impossibility.
It was a throw-away comment intended as a joke at wiggin's post. It is not an explanation of anything, just a statement of fact. The discussion around this pseudo-quote has been had a few times by now, I recall one go-around with Chaloobi, for instance. I am still unsure how your solitary example actually relates to anything said so far, so...You got me there?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
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