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Thread: Faster than the speed of light?

  1. #31
    YayNess !!

    Neutrino experiment repeat at Cern finds same result

    The team behind the finding in September that neutrinos may travel faster than light has carried out an improved version of their experiment - and found the same result.

    If confirmed by other experiments, the find could undermine one of the basic principles of modern physics.

    Critics of the first report had said that the long bunches of neutrinos used could introduce an error into the test.

    The new work, posted to the Arxiv repository, used much shorter bunches.

    It has been submitted to the Journal of High Energy Physics, but has not yet been reviewed by the scientific community.

    The experiments have been carried out by the Opera collaboration - short for Oscillation Project with Emulsion-tRacking Apparatus.

    It hinges on sending bunches of neutrinos created at the Cern facility (actually produced as decays within a long bunch of protons produced at Cern) through 730km of rock to a giant detector at the Gran Sasso laboratory in Italy.

    The initial series of experiments, comprising 16,000 separate measurements spread out over three years, found that the neutrinos arrives 60 billionths of a second faster than light would have, travelling unimpeded over the same distance.

    The idea that nothing can exceed the speed of light in a vacuum forms a cornerstone in physics - first laid out by James Clerk Maxwell and later incorporated into Albert Einstein's theory of special relativity.

    Initial analysis of the work by the wider scientific community argued that the relatively long bunches of neutrinos could introduce a significant error into the measurement.

    Those bunches lasted 10 millionths of a second - 160 times longer than the discrepancy the team initially reported in the neutrinos' travel time.

    To address that, scientists at Cern adjusted the way in which the proton beams were produced, resulting in bunches just three billionths of a second long, so the Opera collaboration could repeat the measurements.

    The first announcement of evidently faster-than-light neutrinos caused a stir world-wide; the Opera collaboration is very aware of its implications if eventually proved correct.


    The error in the length of the bunches, however, is just the largest among several potential sources of uncertainty in the measurement that must all now be addressed in turn; these mostly centre on the precise departure and arrival times of the bunches.

    "A measurement so delicate and carrying a profound implication on physics requires an extraordinary level of scrutiny," said Fernando Ferroni, president of Italian Institute for Nuclear Physics in a statement.

    "The experiment Opera, thanks to a specially adapted Cern beam, has made an important test of consistency of its result. The positive outcome of the test makes us more confident in the result, although a final word can only be said by analogous measurements performed elsewhere in the world."

    Those measurements may be much longer in coming, as only a few facilities worldwide have the detectors needed to catch the notoriously flighty neutrinos - which interact with matter so rarely as to have earned the nickname "ghost particles".

    Next year, teams working on two other experiments at Gran Sasso experiments - Borexino and Icarus - will begin independent cross-checks of Opera's results.

    The US Minos experiment and Japan's T2K experiment will also test the observations. It is likely to be several months before they report back.

  2. #32
    It wasn't actually me

    The first two pages of the article in Arxiv are the author list, though. Jesus Christ
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  3. #33
    So, I was thinking five batteries of laser cannons on our first faster-than light space ship.
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  4. #34
    That's

    That's not really what's

    I mean

    Fuck

    Fuck!

    FUCK!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  5. #35
    Five too low?
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  6. #36
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  7. #37
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  8. #38
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  9. #39
    Click to view the full version
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  10. #40
    how does it go so fast dr steely

    why, it shoots neutrinos out the back of course!
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  11. #41
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  12. #42
    Awesome.

    Think I'll put off repairing the fence for a bit, maybe we can enslave some Wookies soon.

  13. #43
    I have a layman's understanding of general / special relativity only.

    I'm stuck at trying to get an idea of what I'd see if I went faster than light. I'm thinking about the direction and pattern of dispersion (e.g. emanating away from a sun) of photons. If I jump to lightspeed, I assume that I'd be blind if all photons were projected along the same path as I am, as none would enter my retina.
    What happens if I go faster than light? Some photons from a star before me will enter my retina whilst some from the star behind me will get left behind. So, I'd continue to see going 'forward' but if I turned and looked backward...

    What would I see? Some sort of cone of darkness whenever I look straight behind me?

  14. #44
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    I think the idea of relativity is that in any inertial frame, light moves at the speed of light relative to you, so even if you travel almost at light speed compared to me, you'd see light traveling around you (and into your retina) at the speed of light. I, as the observer, would notice hardly any difference in speed between you and the light, though.

    As I understand it, general relativity throws mass and gravity in the equation.. Stupid as out may sound, couldn't there be some kind of coupling between the earth's mass and the results?

    And I'm curious how exactly they measure this, synchronizing the measurements, and measuring neutrinos, which is both kinda tricky..

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    And I'm curious how exactly they measure this, synchronizing the measurements, and measuring neutrinos, which is both kinda tricky..
    That knowledge is but a mouse click away!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  16. #46
    One of the objections to the findings have been that they neglected to take some aspects of relativity into account when performing their calculations, which led to problems due to the use of GPS satellites etc. That group found that most/all of the error could be accounted for by making those adjustments. I'm not sure if they had anything to do with this paper, it would be weird if they had.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  17. #47
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    One mouse click and reading and thinking out through thoroughly is too much for my hungover brain right now but I will read it later!

  18. #48
    In case anyone's still interested, one group has pointed out the lack of secondary effects supra-luminal particles should generate, hinting that it's a case of measurement error rather than actual FTL movement. I am not savvy enough in particle physics to create a counter-argument to this paper, but that doesn't make it right. (Or wrong!) Anyway, good news for Albert!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  19. #49
    How many different tests would it honestly take before the idea of statistical mismeasurement is put to rest? I'm not saying it didn't happen, or that it can't happen; I'm just curious at which point the results would be taken in a more factual manner. Would perhaps other agencies/laboratories achieving the same results have more, say, impact?

  20. #50
    There is no set limit for the stats thing; different sciences have different standards. But it would be wonderful to get data from another measuring station with a different team and a different error analysis for stuff like distance measurements etc. But again I am not an expert in this particular field.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  21. #51
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    The article mentions 15223 events, spread over three years of experiment runs. So the statistical error is pretty small, I'd say. But more, different experiments would reduce the risk of a systematic error.

    It's an interesting read, though to be honest I'm not qualified enough to read it very critically.

    The high-accuracy time-transfer GPS receiver allows to continuously monitor tiny movements of the Earth’s crust, such as continental drift that shows up as a smooth variation of
    less than 1 cm/year, and the detection of slightly larger effects due to earthquakes. The April
    2009 earthquake in the region of LNGS, in particular, produced a sudden displacement of about 7
    cm, as seen in Fig. 7. All mentioned effects are within the accuracy of the baseline determination.
    Fascinating Even tidal displacements are accounted for, and the earth's rotation.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  22. #52
    Months after researchers reported that they measured neutrinos traveling faster than light, they're finding that the incredible result may have been due to a bad connection rather than a violation of Albert Einstein's special theory of relativity.

    The potential instrumental glitches, first reported today by ScienceInsider's Edwin Cartlidge, is due to be addressed on Thursday in a statement from the OPERA Collaboration, the group behind the controversial neutrino-beam experiments.

    Last year, the OPERA team made ultra-precise measurements of how long it took for neutrinos to make the 450-mile (732-kilometer) trip between the CERN particle physics lab on the French-Swiss border and Italy's Gran Sasso National Laboratory. When they took the speed of light and a wide variety of other experimental factors into consideration, they determined that the neutrinos arrived 60 nanoseconds before they should have.

    If the results were to stand up, they'd mark the first failed test for Einstein's century-old theory. That's one reason why researchers found them so hard to believe, even though a repetition of the experiment yielded the same results. The OPERA team has been reviewing the entire experiment, and several other research groups have been trying to replicate it. A key concern has been the Global Positioning Satellite system used to clock the neutrinos' transit time. The measurements are required to be so precise that the relativistic effects of Earth's gravitational field on the GPS system had to be taken into account.

    Now sources familiar with the OPERA review say scientists have identified two potential problems with the experimental apparatus. One has to do with a fiber-optic connector that sends a GPS time stamp to the experiment's master clock. That connector may not have been functioning correctly when the neutrino-timing measurements were made, and as a result, the recorded flight time would be shorter than the actual time. That alone could explain the seemingly faster-than-light results.

    Another potential problem has to do with the oscillator that was used to generate the time stamps for GPS synchronization. This problem could have made the flight time look longer than it really was.

    The sources I contacted via email declined to be identified because they weren't authorized to speak in advance of Thursday's scheduled statement. One of the scientists said the glitches should not be characterized as "errors," but instead as "nasty instrumental effects."

    CERN spokesman James Gillies confirmed that the GPS connector problem was being investigated, but he emphasized that the effects still had to be confirmed. "More beam will be needed before we know for sure," he told me in an email. Tests with short pulsed beams have been scheduled for May.
    Source

    Oh well, but it's not like we didn't all expect something like this.

  23. #53
    Well, one potential error would mean the neutrinos actually travelled faster than initially believed. The other, slower.

    More experiments people.

  24. #54
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    Well, one potential error would mean the neutrinos actually travelled faster than initially believed. The other, slower.

    More experiments people.
    You'd almost think they deliberately kept things uncertain to get more money for more experiments!
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

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