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  1. #1
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Arson, eh? Next thing you know, GeeGee's gonna be calling for a ban on arses to solve that problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    All of Texas is burning. They haven't had rain in months or something to that effect. If a hot steak falls on the grass, say bye-bye to the house.
    So, ban cooked meat and eating outside? Gotcha.

    The issue isn't what causes fires, or fire ordinances in general, or even fire ordinances in particular. It's GeeGee going all nuts over something she's imagined into existence again. This time it's propane embers that give rise to living, breathing, thinking fire elementals that kick puppies, worship the anti-Christ, eat children, rape gayosexuals (or is it rape children and eat gayosexuals?) are currently burning the entire state of Texas and will consume the entire continent in fire if we don't give fire the respect it deserves, and maybe a human sacrifice or two.

    Ri-ducking-ficulous.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Fire is nothing to be messed with, or underestimated. Fire spreads, destroys, and kills. Far be it for you to "indulge" in the mindset that a force as powerful as Fire is stronger than you.
    Yeah, I smoked. I played with fire dozens of times a day for years.

    Not once did it rape my children, spread to my puppy, destroy my state or kill my wife. And I can't be sure, but I also saw no other signs of sentience or devil worship on the part of fire. I think I both know more about fire and have more experience with it than you do, so kindly shove your hysterics, because they're laughable. Or, they would be laughable if hysterical shit like that wasn't exactly how we end up with federal felonies for mailing batteries. (Punishable by up a $10,000 fine, and up to two years in prison, IIRC.)

    Just drop it. You clearly know nothing about fire (and boy is that list getting humongous), how to harness and control it, how to use it, or what its dangers really are. So stop assuming everyone else is as limited as you and basing your opinions on absurd fantasies of ass-raping fire demons, or what the hell ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Sounds like an acceptable response to the endless "sent from my iDevice" sigs.
    I'd rather they just start shipping spell-checkers in mobile browsers, which would negate the need for those bloody things. Probably still a few years off, though.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    So, ban cooked meat and eating outside? Gotcha.
    No, (obviously!) GGT's point was that you have to be very careful in such dry and hot conditions, and I happen to agree!

  3. #3
    FFS Cain, you can't seriously believe that there is no chance of burning your backyard/house from a BBQ. The odds are most definately against it, but the possibility exists. It is for this very reason that some states, mine included, enacts occasional bans on "open fires". The possibility increases with population density, apartment complexes with balconies in particular are exceptionally prone to BBQ fires. Many apt. communities don't allow BBQ's, some only allow gas grills ( no embers being blown from them), for this reason. GGT's shock that a similiar type ban was not already in place in an arid region like Tx. is justified. Your attempts to conflagrate this into a desire to ban all things tech, or whatever the hell you're doing, is plain ignorant. Maybe you should read some facts about fire prevention and safety, maybe you should climb down off your cross use the wood to build a bridge and get over it.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    No, (obviously!) GGT's point was that you have to be very careful in such dry and hot conditions, and I happen to agree!
    I am curious as to how you ascertained THAT as GeeGee's point. I mean, damn, it's so not even close to what I read it's perplexing.

    Caution is fine. Banning people from smoking and using propane grills is a whole different beast that falls under hysterical shit, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by rumrunner View Post
    FFS Cain, you can't seriously believe that there is no chance of burning your backyard/house from a BBQ.
    You couldn't set my lawn and/or house on fire even if you used the propane tank as a flamethrower, actually. Not from the outside, at least, so I do seriously believe that there is NO chance of setting my backyard or house on fire with a BBQ, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by rumrunner View Post
    Your attempts to conflagrate this into a desire to ban all things tech, or whatever the hell you're doing, is plain ignorant. Maybe you should read some facts about fire prevention and safety, maybe you should climb down off your cross use the wood to build a bridge and get over it.
    Yeah, well maybe you should read some of GeeGee's posts, such as the ones I've been responding to. Not something I'd normally advocate, but strange times and all that. Excerpts italicized below.

    Someone sure is conflating shit and being ignorant and ridiculous, but it ain't me. GeeGee's gone from banning grills (note, she didn't even start at the reasonable position of open flame bans) to the need to ban anything that could theoretically summon into existence the "living, breathing" essence of flame that will ass-rape us all. Like cows and hay. Basically, any technology of any sort, including animal husbandry could theoretically ignite a wildfire, and must be banned immediately, according to GeeGee's hysterical reasoning. So Christ, take it up with her, not me. Like I said, I played with fire dozens of times a day for many years, and have yet to start a single wildfire or have my ass raped by a fire elemental - this is not a situation that urgently needs government interference, no matter what GeeGee claims. Anyway, since you didn't seem to read them the first time around, in order:

    Texas is a red state, with a governor and legislature loath to "tell people what to do". [...] I'd have thought a ban on outdoor burning and water restrictions during drought would have been enacted long ago.

    There are at least three huge fires raging in separate areas, affecting Austin and Houston and their suburbs.

    You may think it's "chicken little-ing" to recognize risk contagion. Especially when it comes to fires in dry, drought-ravaged areas, with high winds changing direction. But I don't downplay fire (or flood) at all. In fact, it's part of Emergency Management and Disaster Planning on every local level. Whether local legislation is part of that effort remains to be seen.

    99.999% of backyard BBQ's aren't being made in Texas, or under their same risky conditions. It's SOP whenever there are dry, drought conditions that local governments implement temporary bans, just as state and federal parks and campgrounds do for any use of flame or fire. No fireworks, no grilling, no campfires, no smoking, no burning garbage, no burning of dormant crop fields.

    Dry forests don't spontaneously combust without some human element. Backyard trees or grasses don't start their own conflagrations. But yes, one reckless backyard BBQ griller can send a live ember or blowing spark into a grove of private dry trees or brush, and start a fire that turns into a wildfire. One stray match can burn swaths of public forest. Fire doesn't recognize private vs public lands. That's why local fire prevention ordinances are supposed to be fairly strict.

    Actually, I AM the voice of reason when it comes to FIRE. The only reasonable position is to recognize that FIRE is a living, breathing entity that spreads itself quite easily. Fire doesn't discriminate, and is something to be actively prevented and controlled. You and Enoch are busy using stupid analogies to disrespect the role of government, like banning cars or telephones, instead of respecting FIRE.

    Oh, for fuck's sake. The Great Chicago Fire was started either by a person or a bovine, or maybe hay and a flammable liquid, but all had human impetus. Fire, itself, didn't care who started it.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  5. #5
    Do you currently live in Texas, Cain?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Do you currently live in Texas, Cain?
    Sure.

    If GeeGee gets to talk about the horrors of propane embers from backyard grills starting wildfires miles away (you know, out in the wild) that give rise to fire elementals which will consume us all, I get to have a residence in Texas. And it's a huge one too.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    No, (obviously!) GGT's point was that you have to be very careful in such dry and hot conditions, and I happen to agree!


    Quote Originally Posted by rumrunner View Post
    FFS Cain, you can't seriously believe that there is no chance of burning your backyard/house from a BBQ. The odds are most definately against it, but the possibility exists. It is for this very reason that some states, mine included, enacts occasional bans on "open fires". The possibility increases with population density, apartment complexes with balconies in particular are exceptionally prone to BBQ fires. Many apt. communities don't allow BBQ's, some only allow gas grills ( no embers being blown from them), for this reason. GGT's shock that a similiar type ban was not already in place in an arid region like Tx. is justified. Your attempts to conflagrate this into a desire to ban all things tech, or whatever the hell you're doing, is plain ignorant. Maybe you should read some facts about fire prevention and safety, maybe you should climb down off your cross use the wood to build a bridge and get over it.
    Hi there, rummie! Yep, temporary bans happen all the time, in parks or state forest campgrounds, also residential areas during drought. It is surprising if Texas hadn't put those precautions in place. Cain is being obnoxious again, that's all.

    During a long drought a few years ago, our localities even temp banned the use of heat paint-stripping tools, diesel generators, and propane torches for any residential construction/welding. Everything was too dry and crispy, including the grass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Florida does controlled burns all the time. Mainly for the reasons you stated, especially because it clears out the weaker vegetation, which is usually hostile vine plants that don't belong here anyway. We lost one of our Boy Scout camp grounds from a control burn that got out of hand

    Wildfires spread insanely fast, so the taller trees don't suffer to much, one reason Pine Trees are so common around here and Oaks are protected once they get old enough

    Do love the irony of the state needing federal assistance after slashing the state fire department, needing FEMA only days after attacking it.
    The irony is rich, innit? Like how they blame FEMA for people building where they shouldn't, or living in risky coastal towns and seashores. (Lewk is big on that idea.) But disasters happen everywhere, and states can't afford emergency response or repairs on their own. Rain and flooding all along the mid-Atlantic, from Maryland to New York. We're getting hit hard now with flooding, after 10 inches of rain in two days, and more on its way. Roads and highways washed out, 8-9 feet of water in homes nowhere near rivers or creeks. Susquehanna River won't crest until later today and it's already over flood stage. Too bad we can't send Texas all our water.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    The irony is rich, innit?
    Not really, no. One of the things the atrocious federal tax rates allegedly pay for is services like FEMA. So if you don't want Texas to have access to FEMA, that's fine, and fair, just as soon as Texas and Texans don't have to pay the feds for those services. They are owed those services by the feds, for payment already rendered, and thus, are either entitled to the services, or a full refund of their federal tax bills. Pick one.

    Wanting the government to fuck off and leave you alone is not incompatible with wanting to get what you're owed, because the government refuses to stop taking your money.

    Sorry, that was entirely logical and reasonable, meaning it has no place in your little rant. Pardon the interruption, and do carry on.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Not really, no. One of the things the atrocious federal tax rates allegedly pay for is services like FEMA. So if you don't want Texas to have access to FEMA, that's fine, and fair, just as soon as Texas and Texans don't have to pay the feds for those services. They are owed those services by the feds, for payment already rendered, and thus, are either entitled to the services, or a full refund of their federal tax bills. Pick one.

    Wanting the government to fuck off and leave you alone is not incompatible with wanting to get what you're owed, because the government refuses to stop taking your money.

    Sorry, that was entirely logical and reasonable, meaning it has no place in your little rant. Pardon the interruption, and do carry on.
    Owed services by the feds, payment already rendered and entitled to refunds? Pick one...WTF?

    That's not how nations, federal taxes, or united states work, but you know that already. It's not like New York state is responsible for all 9/11 NYC costs, and can only get out what they paid in federal taxes.

    If anything, you may have it backward. Texas doesn't have a state income tax or a corporate tax. Maybe if they did, they could have paid for more and better state fire prevention/public rescue workers/first responders/disaster planning, and the fires wouldn't have spread to several thousands of acres and hundreds of homes? Instead, the whole thing got out of hand, until the fires are visible from satellite, ultimately requiring federal assistance.

    Hate "taxes" all you like, but they serve a genuine purpose. Hate "gummint regulation" all you want, but they also serve a legitimate purpose.

    You're on no higher ground than the person who'd complain if their apartment or home was lit on fire, because some twit was BBQing on a balcony during dangerous drought and high wind conditions. Then bitch even more when the public fire department can't save all their stuff and they're suddenly homeless, because there are too many fires out of control. Never mind being apopleptic when their insurance turns out to not cover wildfires that spread to suburban areas.

    Pretty much like bitching about mandatory measles inoculation and subsidized vaccine costs, but only after contagious people are giving others the measles.

  10. #10
    Florida does controlled burns all the time. Mainly for the reasons you stated, especially because it clears out the weaker vegetation, which is usually hostile vine plants that don't belong here anyway. We lost one of our Boy Scout camp grounds from a control burn that got out of hand

    Wildfires spread insanely fast, so the taller trees don't suffer to much, one reason Pine Trees are so common around here and Oaks are protected once they get old enough


    Do love the irony of the state needing federal assistance after slashing the state fire department, needing FEMA only days after attacking it.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  11. #11
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    Swing and a miss.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  12. #12
    Cain: You're wrong on point X for reasons A, B, and C.
    GGT: What do you mean? Reasons D, E, and F are incorrect, and don't justify your support for point Z.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #13
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    Federal programs like FEMA aren't "made available," they're made mandatory. So, to correct your anaolgy, it would be more like if your health insurance provider put a gun to your head and forced you to do business with them, stole your car, ran you over with it, denied your claims because you complained about the level of service they provided and then mocked you and called it ironic that now you "need" them (after they crippled you, but they ignore that little detail, natch).

    And good luck with that productive exchange with GeeGee, by the way. Let me know how it turns out.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Federal programs like FEMA aren't "made available," they're made mandatory. So, to correct your anaolgy, it would be more like if your health insurance provider put a gun to your head and forced you to do business with them, stole your car, ran you over with it, denied your claims because you complained about the level of service they provided and then mocked you and called it ironic that now you "need" them (after they crippled you, but they ignore that little detail, natch).

    And good luck with that productive exchange with GeeGee, by the way. Let me know how it turns out.
    To get aid from FEMA the governor has to request assistance from the president. In that sense, the federal government isn't mandating states declare states of emergencies and use their services.

    However, you are right in that funding for FEMA is mandatory; there's no opt out option for people living in states that don't want their assistance.

    In short GGT, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for states to pay for two insurance policies when they've already paid for one.

  15. #15
    For the record, the thing about Mrs. O'Leary's cow is a myth. The Irish were not responsible for the burning of Chicago.

    (This PSA brought to you by Prof. Peter Hayes, the best history teacher I have ever had. And a Boston Irishman to boot.)

  16. #16
    Mrs. O'Leary.


    Correct, there's no mandate for a governor to request FEMA assistance. Texas could choose to go it alone on these fires, since their governor claims the federal government should be inconsequential in their lives. After all, they rebuilt Galveston after hurricane devastation, and didn't need no stinkin' federal help.

    Besides, federal taxes aren't quite like that insurance policy analogy. Federal taxes also pay for other things like our military, with no "rebate" for states who enlist more soldiers for duty, and no "refund" if a state doesn't like being in Iraq or Afghanistan. They're funds collected for the collective good. That doesn't mean states shouldn't hire police and then need the National Guard or Reserves....

    I think Perry (and other Republicans) are being dishonest, or not genuine about important roles of the federal government. He's just fine asking for federal assistance in border control, knowing full well all other states help pay for that. That's how united states work and help each other out. That would be the honest stance, at least.

  17. #17
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Federal taxes [... are] funds collected for the collective good.
    Click to view the full version
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Correct, there's no mandate for a governor to request FEMA assistance. Texas could choose to go it alone on these fires, since their governor claims the federal government should be inconsequential in their lives. After all, they rebuilt Galveston after hurricane devastation, and didn't need no stinkin' federal help.
    True, Texas could go it alone and foot the whole bill itself, but then it's essentially paying twice for the same service.

    Federal taxes also pay for other things like our military, with no "rebate" for states who enlist more soldiers for duty, and no "refund" if a state doesn't like being in Iraq or Afghanistan. They're funds collected for the collective good. That doesn't mean states shouldn't hire police and then need the National Guard or Reserves....
    There is a real and undisputed constitutional mandate for the federal government to maintain a military, including the national guard. For states who don't agree with contributing their National Guard to war, they can establish State Defense Forces.

    There is a less compelling argument for the constitutional mandate of FEMA.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 09-09-2011 at 03:34 AM.

  19. #19
    Where you're focused on the "mandate" of federal taxes, or which agency's coffer they fill....I'm focused on the probability that NO state can cover their own costs of disasters. And what would the rest of our nation supposedly do, sit around and watch devastation and destruction, and donate to the Red Cross?

    Sorry, I don't find that feasible or up to snuff for a first world nation like the US. No way Vermont can fix it on their own, or Texas as it continues to burn. I posted some pics from PA's last 2 days of flooding in GC. Seriously, without federal help, please explain how all this damage can be repaired, if states were "on their own".

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    I'm focused on the probability that NO state can cover their own costs of disasters.
    Sure you are. In any event, I'm sure that the federal government taking a third of every "state's" money has no impact on the ability of states to insure their individual citizenry against natural disasters.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Where you're focused on the "mandate" of federal taxes, or which agency's coffer they fill....I'm focused on the probability that NO state can cover their own costs of disasters. And what would the rest of our nation supposedly do, sit around and watch devastation and destruction, and donate to the Red Cross?

    Sorry, I don't find that feasible or up to snuff for a first world nation like the US. No way Vermont can fix it on their own, or Texas as it continues to burn. I posted some pics from PA's last 2 days of flooding in GC. Seriously, without federal help, please explain how all this damage can be repaired, if states were "on their own".
    What do you, exactly, think FEMA does? Their annual budget is about 6 billion dollars. The estimated damage for Hurricane Katrina alone was well over 100 billion dollars.

    Do you want to know how the Gulf was rebuilt? Much of it was through people donating their time, their money, and their labor to make it happen. I spent a week in Pascagoula mudding out houses there that were damaged by the storm surge. I worked alongside hundreds of other volunteers.

    We showered and cleaned off at one of the many Red Cross stations there, and had our clothes washed in specialized RV's donated by Tide. We used supplies donated by churches, local businesses, and other charity groups. Private individual donations for Katrina amounted to something like 5 billion dollars, and that's just counting their monetary contributions.

    Now, to be fair Congress did allocate something like 60 billion dollars, with about half of that going to subsidize housing for people living there. Let's just let that sink in for a second. The government was, and is subsidizing housing in areas prone to flooding, hurricanes, and storm surges, and then when the inevitable occurs and storm surges, floods, and hurricanes happen they go back and pay people to live there and subsidize their housing/rebuilding costs and living expenses. I know you think it's preposterous that people take responsibility for their choices, but you don't see any problem with this?

    I think we can all just thank glod that those federally funded and maintained levees held, eh?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    [snip]

    Now, to be fair Congress did allocate something like 60 billion dollars, with about half of that going to subsidize housing for people living there. Let's just let that sink in for a second. The government was, and is subsidizing housing in areas prone to flooding, hurricanes, and storm surges, and then when the inevitable occurs and storm surges, floods, and hurricanes happen they go back and pay people to live there and subsidize their housing/rebuilding costs and living expenses. I know you think it's preposterous that people take responsibility for their choices, but you don't see any problem with this?

    I think we can all just thank glod that those federally funded and maintained levees held, eh?


    Interesting article about re-insurance, how it influences insurance, and peoples' decisions to rebuild after an "event" (including terrorism):

    from page 4

    ....“Faktor K,” for “Kultur”: the culture factor. Losses from Hurricanes Katrina, Rita, and Wilma had been much higher than expected in ways the existing windstorm models hadn’t predicted, and it wasn’t because they were far off on wind velocities.

    The problem had to do more with how people on the Gulf Coast were assessing windstorm risk as a group. Mangrove swamps on the Louisiana coast had been cut down and used as fertilizer, stripping away a barrier that could have sapped the storm of some of its energy. Levees were underbuilt, not overbuilt. Reinsurers and modeling firms had focused on technology and the natural sciences; they were missing lessons from economists and social scientists. “We can’t just add another bell and whistle to the model,” says Bresch, “It’s about how societies tolerate risk.”

    “We approach a lot of things as much as we can from the point of statistics and hard data,” says David Smith, head of model development for Eqecat, a natural hazards modeling firm. “It’s not the perfect expression.” The discrepancy between the loss his firm modeled for Katrina and the ultimate claims-based loss number for his clients was the largest Smith had seen. Like others in the industry, Eqecat had failed to anticipate the extent of levee failure. Construction quality in the Gulf states before Katrina was poorer than anticipated, and Eqecat was surprised by a surge in demand after the storm that inflated prices for labor and materials to rebuild. Smith recognizes that these are questions for sociologists and economists as well as engineers, and he consults with the softer sciences to get his models right. But his own market has its demands, too. “The more we can base the model on empirical data,” he says, “the more defendable it is.”

    After their walk around the lake in 2005, Swiss Re’s Bresch and Schraft began meeting with social scientists and laying out two goals. First, they wanted to better understand the culture factor and, ultimately, the risks they were underwriting. Second, they wanted to use that understanding to help the insured prevent losses before they had to be paid for.

    The business of insurers and reinsurers rests on balancing a risk between two extremes. If the risk isn’t probable enough, or the potential loss isn’t expensive enough, there’s no reason for anyone to buy insurance for it. If it’s too probable and the loss too expensive, the premium will be unaffordable. This is bad for both the insured and the insurer. So the insurance industry has an interest in what it calls “loss mitigation.” It encourages potential customers to keep their property from being destroyed in the first place. If Swiss Re is trying to affect the behavior of the property owners it underwrites, it’s sending a signal: Some behavior is so risky that it’s hard to price. Keep it up, and you’ll have no insurance and we’ll have no business. That’s bad for everyone.
    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...-09012011.html


    That's another way to look at those federally funded and maintained levees (that failed)---and who's in that circle of "responsibility"---certainly it's more than just homebuilders or homeowners, or federal government.

    In a perfect world, our private and public entities would work together on any project. Before AND after any "event". Army Corps of Engineers, construction and material experts, economists, engineers, government officials, environmental/geological experts, city planners, 'soft science' behaviorists, insurers/re-insurers and risk analysts. But that would take cooperation, time....and even layers of bureaucracy, that everyone loves to hate. It would make building and infrastructure projects more expensive, at a time when TAXES are considered teh evil, and public spending is being slashed.

    It takes political will to fund research into earthquake/hurricane/tornado/fire proof structures, cluster communities, emergency response teams....or institute zoning ordinances and restrictive laws, that people also love to hate.

  23. #23
    That's great you volunteered your time. I'm certainly not discounting the value of volunteers, charity, or church groups. Pretty sure that kind of help would show up at any disaster, even if the government "paid" for every cent of recovery and rebuilding.

    FEMA isn't just a national disaster insurance policy, though. They're already operating in the red, and we know that. FEMA didn't just "subsidize" housing after Katrina (which meant those formaldehyde tainted campers, a terrible substandard btw) but also relocating thousands of people to other states. Mostly where they had family to take them in, and start a new life.

    The handling of Katrina exposed mismanagement and bad planning from the federal government, we know that, too. In hindsight. But it also exposed how unprepared and uncoordinated things were at the local level, especially New Orleans. I know the tired old argument that they relied too heavily on the feds, but that doesn't pass the smell test. Every single urban center, especially those in hurricane/flood zones, and especially those at important seaports transporting food, oil cargo, or with oil refineries....has known for decades the importance of disaster planning. (No excuses for Mayor Nagin, N.O. police or their shamefully inept "plans". We already exhausted that ages ago, and I don't feel like re-hashing it again.)

    Anyway, that local level is part of any "responsibility for choices". Zoning ordinances, temporary bans, city planning, civil engineering, disaster preparedness. Of course that's not preposterous! I'm not convinced you can blame the federal gov't for what a local or state gov't could have/should have done themselves, though. Like allowing mobile homes in tornado alley, new business built at river's edge, homes built downhill from known mud slide areas...or not instituting strict no-burn bans during droughts.

    The dilemma is that so much of our commerce and trade happens in areas prone to floods, storms, earthquakes, tornadoes, blizzards, drought, fire....etc. Can't just relocate all of N.O. even though they're below sea level. Can't move Chicago, LA, San Diego, St. Louis, Miami, etc. There's a reason we've built up cities close to our coasts and major rivers, with roads, bridges and train trestles connecting people to work and home.

    I've said this so many times before, but there is no "safe place" in the US that can't see a disaster. Natural or man-made. It would be great if our infrastructure was A-one top notch, including levees and dams. But they're not. Because that costs MONEY and *the horror!* tax dollars. And the US has become more concerned about skin-flint cheap-skating at all levels, instead of building or re-building high quality infrastructure at any level. It's pathetic.

  24. #24
    Hey Enoch, you'll get a kick out of this article. Who says self-reliance is dead? Or that people are so spoiled they sit around and whine for federal assistance?

    Still, they're going to have to replace the washed out roads in Vermont. I don't think they all expect to be isolated survivalists once the winter snow comes....

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/12/us...vermont&st=cse

  25. #25
    Necro bump

    This thread got sidetracked (or hijacked) a year ago, but remains a central issue. FEMA still up for debate/discussion.

    Gov. Christie (NJ) is 'inviting' The Army Corps of Engineers to conduct studies and make recommendations for the Jersey Shore rebuilding effort. Gov. Cuomo (NY) has stated publicly that One hundred year events are now happening every two years, suggesting that we're in the midst of an Amsterdam moment.

    POTUS candidates have distinct differences in ideology. Romney/Ryan would prefer to cut FEMA 40% (possibly defund it altogether??), have states responsible for their own disaster relief and rebuilding infrastructure, and even better if done by the private sector. IMO that's a recipe for a different kind of disaster: states beholden to corporate interests, and a nation that no longer acts like a Union.

    What do you think?

  26. #26
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Serious question: What did we do before FEMA?
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  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Serious question: What did we do before FEMA?
    if you believe wikipedia, pretty much the same, but slower and it bounced between different agencies. DoH, RFC, Congress in 1803.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal...agement_Agency

    Edit: GGT got it first
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  28. #28

  29. #29
    Kinda like asking what we did before telephones, or 911 for emergencies.


    edit: Regarding phones....it's impressive that Emergency declarations are robo-called to my phone. Alerts from the school superintendent about school closings, calls from County about road closings and Disaster evacuations....

    But it rather fell apart with the loss of electricity, substations down, grid outages for days at a time. People without a car to charge their cell phones were left in the dark, and it wasn't like they could walk to a wi-fi area or some place to plug in.

  30. #30
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Kinda like asking what we did before telephones, or 911 for emergencies.
    Hmmmm...You can't Professionalize until you Federalize???
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