The whole concept of doing artistic things for their intrinsic value but doesn't "pay", went woosh, huh?Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy
Well, maybe that explains why we value artistic innovators that just DO their thing, and find fame or fortune by accident.
I really don't care why an artist creates and what their motivations are. I like a good story in my books and I like a lot of action in my movies. Why would I care about their motivations?
I'm responding directly to your previous post:
I don't (and I believe the vast majority of people also don't) care if the artistic innovators sought fame or fortune or got it by accident. We don't care about their reasons or how they did it we just want to consume a quality product. What we value is the end product.Well, maybe that explains why we value artistic innovators that just DO their thing, and find fame or fortune by accident.
And I was responding to your statement that less money in an industry means fewer producers, or fewer creative entrants. I think that's totally bassackward.
Too much money kills creativity, and perhaps gigantic producers hurt as much as they help (http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2010/1...aft-pc-gaming/),
but if the artist can't live GGT the art will diethey have to at least be able to make a living doing this thing that they enjoy doing so very much. With more money in an industry more people may be able to make a living through artistic pursuits = larger pool of artists. For better or worse
if money and time weren't such important issues i think a lot more people would meddle with artistic things. just look at the explosion of creativity that's been brought about by the ubiquity of tech and the abundance of leisure time
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
I think industry estimates are well below 10% in the US at least, not sure if it's higher in Europe for some reason. But I'll have to find a source later. Still, publishers can also find ways to block content from being available if the ad doesn't load due to adblocking software.
More generally online advertising is different in that it's trackable. So unlike TV ads, you can see if anyone is actually clicking on the ads. If an ad were in a book, the advertisers could choose the books they want to advertise in and optimize based on the best-performing books.
Man, pretty much every single person I know uses adblockersI hope they can keep us safe from malicious ads
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
I'd rather pay money for a book than have ads in it, thanks anyway.
We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.
This game of cat and mouse never ends with the publisher on top.
On a more personal note, I've walked a suprising number of people through sites and ways to remove content protection from files so that they are compatible with Kindle devices. Especially since we actively try to steer people away from the kindle and ipad at the library.
Did I-War have ECCM?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
The end product is often a result of the reasons an artist did something and how they did it.
. . .
Duh. My point is as a consumer is I care about the end product. I don't care about the process and I don't care if the artist did it for money or just because they liked writing. The point was narrowly attacking GGT's statement that we value artists who just "do" it.
Well, maybe that explains why we value artistic innovators that just DO their thing, and find fame or fortune by accident.
okay so what happens when we apply these arguments to something like education?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
What part of "If creating that art doesn't pay for itself, than the field is immediately limited to only the people who will find a way to produce anyway, by living off an inherited fortune, dying of starvation, working two jobs and giving up sleep, etc." makes you think it goes over my head?
I can admire the perseverence and stubbornness of the starving artist, but I don't see that it gives their art any more meaning. A beautiful creation is beautiful whether it was produced by someone in a leaky attic while suffering from withdrawal or by Susan Boyle in a comfortable recording studio owned by Simon Cowell.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
It's certainly possible, and I've been thinking about that in counter-point to what I've been writing, but hadn't brought it up because it would send the discussion off on a tangent. I got the impression that generally it wasn't that money killed creativity so much as it bred second and third-order effects which did so. I suspect that those can be mitigated if involved or interested parties are willing to make an effort, whereas I see little way to mitigate the loss of a (large) subset of artists and creators from not being able to make a living, except for actually enabling them to make a living.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Man, pretty much every single person I know uses adblockersInteresting, I've only met one person who has used ad blockers (at least that I'm aware of). I don't think most people I know care enough to even look into it.
But I think the great potential of this technology is that people could have a choice -- buy an e-book for a fee or get it for free with ads. Assuming an ad exchange for the ebook market can be developed and scaled properly, I think that's a pretty compelling business model that gives people options for how to access content.
What's ECCM?
I do think people fall into the iPad and Kindle trap way too easily. I made the same mistake of sorts with iTunes. I knew I was getting into a situation where a big chunk of my music was locked into a proprietary system, and I stand by my choice because it was the best legal system at the time. But now I'm living with the consequences, as the first waves of people with iPad books and Kindles will.
Electronic Counter-Countermeasures. I think that's Nessie's way of saying, "Is the Pope Catholic?"
Ipads can be used for books from both Nook and Kindle.
I noticed on itunes that I can pay them more money to remove the DRM from my daughter's music, I assume that would then mean I could easily convert it to something else (but of course, she wants another ipod).
As for ads, I always thought that ad-block plus was why so many people choose to use Firefox. When the IE7 pro add-on for IE worked and blocked ads I much preferred it to Firefox - I might see if it has become more functional since the last time I tried since they seem to have had an update.
We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.
But they don't play nicely with all forms of copy protection, which is my library's problem since we use overdrive, adobe digital editions, and net library. We had the same problem with ipods when they refused to support (at the time) the more standard DRM practices such as WMA DRM.
Its part of my beef with the new direction OSes that Apple and Google are supporting. They don't trust the user to make their own computing decisions, everything goes through them (either with a cloud or app store). This ties into the other thread about whats wrong with the internet and someone said the users
Ahh, I see. When we (my mother and I) were playing with an iPad at Best Buy, we saw that there is a kindle app for it, and I assumed that it would therefore actually work somewhere close to correctly.But they don't play nicely with all forms of copy protection, which is my library's problem since we use overdrive, adobe digital editions, and net library. We had the same problem with ipods when they refused to support (at the time) the more standard DRM practices such as WMA DRM.
Its part of my beef with the new direction OSes that Apple and Google are supporting. They don't trust the user to make their own computing decisions, everything goes through them (either with a cloud or app store). This ties into the other thread about whats wrong with the internet and someone said the users
I've actually never tried to use one of the few DRM-protected ebooks I have from somewhere other than B&N on my nook. I should try it, I've heard getting the adobe digital editions to play nicely with most things is a royal pain in the ass.
We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.
I'm on my second Google eBook in just a few weeks. Been very happy with it. Works on iPad, Android, Web browser and Nook. I recommend checking that out, they have some free books you can try too:
http://books.google.com/ebooks
http://books.google.com/support/bin/...answer=1065611
Yeah, I'll definitely look at their free books.
We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.
I was actually asking whether he was familiar with counter-measures being developed to counter the enemy's latest invention; providers blocking content for users with ad-block who then develop less detectable ad-block, and so on. 4X in space is all about getting the next number of ECCM!
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Yes, I'm aware of these kinds of arms races. Though I think they are pretty low level in the advertising world compared to the gaming world.
Ah, makes more sense. My apologies.
You really have no fucking clue about art or what drives it, do you?
)
That's just because you're a homo
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Tear: Many types of art wouldn't exist unless people purchased it. TV and movies with special effects for example need people to purchase it to pay for the cost of the creation of it. Unless you have a really elitist (wouldn't surprise me) of what "art" is then you must agree money plays a critical role in many types of art mediums.
Aside from your little troll, you're missing the point. That vast majority of art has been made by people who barely squeaked by, and never got seriously compensated. Most worked other jobs to support their profitless job. They do art to express themselves. Some would find patrons to keep themselves fed, but overwhelmingly the wealthy artist is a phenomenon of the second half of the 20th century. Try not to view the vast span of history through the eyes of a young, undereducated, extremist zealot trying to repaint history to support an agenda, m'kay?
As for elitist, do you mean having standards? Must be, because you seem to consider Friends to be the apotheosis of art. Of course, we're all familiar with your conflation of financial success (i.e. the lowest common denominator) with quality. Granted, what is good art is spectacularly subjective. But there are generally accepted criteria, like technical expertise, new perspectives, and paradigm shifting.
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