Education in the US

[Ominous Gamer]

Yeah, but doesn't really mean focussed. And this has always happened, will always happen, everywhere. Yet other places, other times, teachers coped with it. Yes, it's part of being a teacher.

I'm hoping most of what I mentioned happens outside of the US
Its a unique problem here because the way teaching is approached from up top, its up to the students to want to learn, while Its the responsibility of the teachers to make the students learn, againist everything else they face. We have very little in the way of bringing a student into the concept of why they want to learn (much less keeping it relevent and interesting), besides reaching college, and thats not cutting it.

This is neither good nor fair. Under the right circumstances, almost anyone can burn out. However, under the right circumstances even potential burnouts can do very well. It's only prudent to make sure people work under good conditions so that they can perform rather than to burn out.

Thank you

[Knux897]

Not yet at least, but I think as we experience more 15 year olds holding entire classrooms hostage, we're see the security theater spread.
But even now, even if your school doesn't currently treat their students like inmates, its still effected by it. Thats funding the district (who should include both rural and urban schools) could be spending more wisely. The atmosphere this type of inner city school creates has a negative effect on the teacher population, and whats made available to the rest of the district. Vested teachers spend their last few years in schools that are least likely to require these security measures. So those schools end up with easy, slow, usually outdated, curriculum. What teacher wants to waste their own time learning new methods when they are planning for retirement? This forces the new teachers into the inner schools. The teachers with the fire for new ideas, the enthusiasm that education needs. This setup destroys these teachers. They become jaded, broken, they quit; and in large numbers.
I'll let you piece it together how it impacts transfers, both student and teacher.

I don't disagree with you're second paragraph, but how can you use 15 year olds as an example? A few cases out of millions of kids? Does almost every 15 year old hold up a classroom?


News spreads, welcome to the digital age. If one school is likely to do it, why won't another? This shouldn't be an issue thats affecting any student, directly or not.

If you haven't noticed, just because news spreads, that dosen't mean it's going to change everyone who is exposed to it. The whole gay prom thing is for the most part a Bible belt ideal. My school has no problem with gays (or even regular PDA for that matter) and has a Gay-Straight-Alliance Club.

Biology, puberty, its a fact of life. Did you not have a single relationship in school? Wait, the forums already know that answer. Even if you were somehow able to keep this all completely out of the classroom, can you say the same for everyone else? All it takes is one breakup, one burned student, to consume the teacher's time to deal with behavior instead of allowing him/her to teach. Are you claiming you were completely focused on learning your entire time in school? You never checked out other students?

I don't know you, but let's say you find someone attractive at work. Do they neccisarily hinder you're job? Is checking out someone in one of my classes going to cause me to fail a test? Just because there are distractions in a classroom, dosen't mean everyone is going to do poorer. I take 3 AP classes and I'm constantly socializing or going out all the time and coming home to 4 hours of homework. I still do pretty well. You seem to apply the problem kids as the majority.

Sports was mainly a jab at pep rallies and all the funding thats wasted on the events, some high schools can make some college programs look like crap.

That's true, but pep rallies and sports make school worth getting more into. If kids participate in sports or go to the games, won't they develop more school spirit which in turn leads to a better experience in school? My school is known for having athletes that do very well academically. So much so infact, we got an award for having athletes with the highest GPAs.

everyone shit talks the system sooner or later. Its called venting. Thats not what gets teachers fired, and the ones that shit talk the most are the most protected.

It's not really venting as much as it is political discussion. Granted, it is mostly the AP teachers who actually care about teaching well, but when they speak it is an opinion of unbiased reason. Also, in which ways are they protected? You never justified this.

Students don't have to cry to their parents about something. It can just as easily come about from bragging about learning something new that the parents didn't want learned, or reading something that the parents take offense to. The overly involved opinionated parents are just as large a threat as the parents who stumble onto something.

True, but it again depends on the school system. Pinellas county is really fucked up and they base their school standards on not getting sued, not education. I don't know what Hillsborough is like, but I've heard they have a much better system over where you live where they don't let parents just bully them around.

I'm not saying all these problems are fixable, but they need addressed (properly) before the US's idea of education can start to work.

You seem to be generalizing though. You take one example and apply is to everything and I've seen first hand that it dosen't work like that (or at least not as extreme as you seem to put it)

^^^^^^^^^^^

[Ominous Gamer]

I don't disagree with you're second paragraph, but how can you use 15 year olds as an example? A few cases out of millions of kids? Does almost every 15 year old hold up a classroom?

You don't need every student to become a problem, just like you don't need every arab to hijack an airplane

If you haven't noticed, just because news spreads, that dosen't mean it's going to change everyone who is exposed to it. The whole gay prom thing is for the most part a Bible belt ideal. My school has no problem with gays (or even regular PDA for that matter) and has a Gay-Straight-Alliance Club.

Teens, by the nature of growing up, are known to be selfdoubting bags of awkardness. The fact that any public school can get away with it can cause ripples throughout the country. The very concept that your student body sees a need for an alliance should be telling you something.

I don't know you, but let's say you find someone attractive at work. Do they neccisarily hinder you're job? Is checking out someone in one of my classes going to cause me to fail a test? Just because there are distractions in a classroom, dosen't mean everyone is going to do poorer. I take 3 AP classes and I'm constantly socializing or going out all the time and coming home to 4 hours of homework. I still do pretty well. You seem to apply the problem kids as the majority.

Alright, at this point you're using yourself to justify why I'm wrong. You're using the idea that you are not failing in a failing system to show how the system isn't a problem. Thats like bragging after winning the special olympics.
I'm not speaking in absolutes where a single distraction is going to cause someone to fail. I'm speaking in the sense that being hindered is right now, in your very response, considered acceptable. Imagine where the education system could be, how much time would be saved if distractions were managed. How much deeper would the teacher be allowed to go into a subject, how much more content would they be able to cover? American education is broken, using it as an example for why its a-ok doesn't work.

That's true, but pep rallies and sports make school worth getting more into. If kids participate in sports or go to the games, won't they develop more school spirit which in turn leads to a better experience in school? My school is known for having athletes that do very well academically. So much so infact, we got an award for having athletes with the highest GPAs.

school spirit works, but not when its tied to the performance of a select group of individuals. Yippee, a random team won a sporting event, your school feels warm and fuzzy. Now what about the other school?
Again, the very concept that a school won an award for their sports team not being full of flunking idiots should say something.
How is your robotics club doing in the FRC?

It's not really venting as much as it is political discussion. Granted, it is mostly the AP teachers who actually care about teaching well, but when they speak it is an opinion of unbiased reason. Also, in which ways are they protected? You never justified this.

AP courses would be a good first stepping stone for American education, start by mimicing that whole concept and I won't complain. But this is again, a select group of students. These are the best the school has, given the best teachers the school can managed, while the majority of the population suffers.
I have very little to say againist AP and dual enrollment procedures; except that they should be the norm, not the exception.

True, but it again depends on the school system.

There are systems from all over the country that suffer from this. I know the WTF threads and ban booked thread have a few different stories of gung-ho teachers being slapped down because an individual parent took offense to an assignment.


You're still in school, so maybe you haven't been able to look back to see how badly it is, but its bad. The system as a whole is bad. The idea that you're trying to present your school as the exception, it doesn't work when we are discussing the material at a global scale.

[GGT]

OG, I was piddling around .edu sites. This one's from Indiana University's Office of Teacher Education:

"Our teacher education programs prepare our graduates to be leaders in helping bring about thoughtful, creative and dynamic changes in the workplace of teaching and in the communities they serve."

http://education.indiana.edu/strongT...7/Default.aspx

YOU ARE HERE: IU > Bloomington > School of Education > Why Teach?

Office of Teacher Education

Why Teach?

There are jobs! We place nearly 90 percent of all students from the Teacher Education Program into teaching jobs during the first year after receiving their degrees.
Options for getting a teaching license: See Pathways to Teaching.

[Ominous Gamer]

The empty promise of college should be saved for another thread, but what exactly are you reaching for with your advertising example?

[GGT]

Huh? I was replying to your post about teachers.

In America teachers aren't seen, aren't trained, aren't treated, like end point educators. They are facilitators of learning. In a perfect world this is a great way to allow one teacher to manage 20-30 students as they starve to fulfil their craving for knowledge. The American teacher is meant to present the information, rudimentary ways to work out solutions to reach the answer, and direct any wayward students back on track if they get themselves hopelessly lost.
Sadly this teaching concept, which I have a strong love for, doesn't work in the US atmosphere.

Yet go to university sites, and see their stated goals and missions. Lead change in the workplace of teaching! THERE ARE JOBS!

[Ominous Gamer]

I think you will find a similiar disconnect with the other departments, schools and colleges. Just how advertising works. Add it to the long list of burn out reasons.

[Catgrrl]

Actually, it's probably good that they start new teachers in problem schools. Ya they might burn out but then maybe teaching isn't their calling. Weed out those who aren't willing to work for the kids who need it.

That's what my friend did. But, of course he made sure to make himself known as a good teacher so he could get his ass out of that hell school. Pregnant 12yr olds and knife-wielding middle schoolers can give one great ambition to get into a better school system.

(Of course there are still preggos in the good schools too, just less gang members)

[Loki]

Actually, it's probably good that they start new teachers in problem schools. Ya they might burn out but then maybe teaching isn't their calling. Weed out those who aren't willing to work for the kids who need it.

That's what my friend did. But, of course he made sure to make himself known as a good teacher so he could get his ass out of that hell school. Pregnant 12yr olds and knife-wielding middle schoolers can give one great ambition to get into a better school system.

(Of course there are still preggos in the good schools too, just less gang members)

Meanwhile, the teachers who don't cut it are making it even less likely that the kids in the problem schools will learn anything.

[Khendraja'aro]

Actually, it's probably good that they start new teachers in problem schools. Ya they might burn out but then maybe teaching isn't their calling. Weed out those who aren't willing to work for the kids who need it.

That's what my friend did. But, of course he made sure to make himself known as a good teacher so he could get his ass out of that hell school. Pregnant 12yr olds and knife-wielding middle schoolers can give one great ambition to get into a better school system.

(Of course there are still preggos in the good schools too, just less gang members)

Yeah, good idea! Make the job of being a teacher even more attractive! Additionally, inexperienced teachers are really the best way to deal with problem schools!

/facepalm

[Aimless]

Actually, it's probably good that they start new teachers in problem schools. Ya they might burn out but then maybe teaching isn't their calling. Weed out those who aren't willing to work for the kids who need it.

This is neither good nor fair. Under the right circumstances, almost anyone can burn out. However, under the right circumstances even potential burnouts can do very well. It's only prudent to make sure people work under good conditions so that they can perform rather than to burn out.

[Aimless]

Given the possible consequences of getting bad grades in the US it's no surprise that parents fight so hard against the teachers. Given the possible consequences of believing in evolution it's no surprise that some parents fight against evolution in biology classes. Given the large number of worn-out beaten down hopeless uneducated parents in the US, well, it's no surprise that things suck.

[Catgrrl]

True. Maybe there could be some sort of rotating situation, where teachers within a system could rotate between all of the schools. In my city alone I think there are 6 high schools, and almost a dozen elementary schools, maybe the same amount of middle schools too.

[GGT]

Maybe we need an overhaul of our universities first --- revamp how our teachers are educated?

[Veldan Rath]

Maybe we need an overhaul of our universities first --- revamp how our teachers are educated?

But by the time those teachers-to-be get to Uni...they have already been failed by the school system that got them there...

[GGT]

But by the time those teachers-to-be get to Uni...they have already been failed by the school system that got them there...

But we have more kids K-12 than teachers. Everyone keeps fiddling at local school levels without much talk about changing Schools of Education, or Teacher's Schools.

[Catgrrl]

Aimless-Yes, but if you have tenured people who don't care, how is that helping students in problem areas? Shouldn't someone with drive and ambition be just the fresh face they need?

I don't know. I was just trying to think of what would make things better. In many fields you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. Why is teaching different.

You don't get into teaching just to teach the rich white kids, right? It's to educate children, regardless of their status. If it wasn't wouldn't one just teach in private school?

[Ominous Gamer]

bottom in many areas means a position with less pay, fewer duties.
What you're suggesting is not that. Most districts don't pay wages based on what school you're at, so the inner city teachers make as much as the teachers in the nicer schools, when accounting for performance and time served.

In your own example your friend did what he could to get the hell out of a problem school. Is an attitude like that really what the students need? To be abandoned as the earliest possible moment?

Incentives for working at problem schools may help a little, but the NCLB rewards high scoring schools.
A popular program right now is to sign new teachers into inner city schools in return for tuition help, so they end up feeling ripped off and trapped.

[Catgrrl]

That's fair. I'm not him so I can't speak for his real motives. I know he was a hell of a lot happier when he got into the better school ( I think the curriculum he teaches now is more what he wanted to do also-in the middle school he was teaching general technology and now he is in a high school teaching media and graphic arts).

He also stayed at that school for 4 years before "moving up". He really enjoyed his fellow teachers; it was the parents screaming at him, and kids wanting to stab each other with the Exacto knives that bothered him I think. It's hard to teach when one kid is beating off in one corner, and another kid is trying to stab his classmate in the other. But even there he had students he liked. The ones that really were interested kept him going.

But even in the "nice" school he has had issues with kids stealing laptops, and fights, etc. So it isn't rosy anywhere I guess.

And I get what you mean about incentives. Some of the schools in our areas have been caught cheating on SOLs; labeling problem students as special needs when they really aren't in order to achieve higher scores. Or marking them as absent that day, unable to make up or something to that effect.

[Knux897]

Hmm... I may have been a bit harsh and spontaneous in my arguements Ominous. I see you're point, and I do realize that the school system sucks, but you seemed to have been generalizing in how I guess I interpreted it. In that case, I apologize if I came across as harsh

[Catgrrl]

You could offer better pay in problem schools...but I guess it just boils down to placing teachers where they are needed (openings etc)

[Khendraja'aro]

You could offer better pay in problem schools...but I guess it just boils down to placing teachers where they are needed (openings etc)

You could offer actual support*) to schools which need it. This "perform badly and we'll cut your finances" is a strange method, as is "perform badly and we'll fire everyone".

But that would cost money and we can't have that, no!

*) Better support means stuff like: social workers, psychologists, smaller classes / team teaching, helping weak teachers to become better ones.

And while you're talking about stuff like "burn out", there are 4 types of teachers and two of those types are at risk to burn out:
1) The idealist who puts a lot of hours into teaching
2) The pragmatist who, while actually doing a good job, has a life besides the school
3) The sloth who works only as much as his job requires him to and not a iota more.
4) The overwhelmed one who's chosen the wrong job

1 and 4 are at a high risk of burning out. 2 and 3 are not. I even had a teacher of type 1 burn out on me - he was a really great teacher, never left school until his duties were done and went to school even on weekends to prepare experiments for monday. He went down because of exhaustion syndrome and was out of school for half a year due to it.

[Catgrrl]

Another problem with teachers, and government employees as a whole:

They aren't paid based on merit, even though they claim their annual raise as a merit increase.

I've worked with some lazy people in the two government jobs I've worked (local level) and they still get a raise every year that one is eligible. You can't fire them unless they commit some sort of felony or something. But they got paid a hell of a lot of money to play around on their laptops, or sit around shooting the shit while newer employees (like me) would carry the workload. They worked there long enough to accrue paid leave, and would just leave halfway through the day so they could go fishing. Which I guess was better than them being there, sitting on their asses while I took calls from the public, etc. I made a bad government employee: I actually cared about what I did, only took time off when I had a doctor appointment or was sick (I did take a vacation at least once a year too). I was efficient. Hence, I did most of the work. For less pay. Guess I wasn't too bright, eh

So yes I understand about burning out. But I stuck with it because even though I was paid less (for being there less time), it was still good pay and good benefits. And sure enough, my good reputation got me into a different department, better pay, more responsibility and more work, but worth it. (There were still people there that should have gotten the boot a long time ago but again they are pretty much going to be there until retirement unless they do something illegal as opposed to just stupid)

[GGT]

Has anyone here seen "Waiting for Superman"?

[GGT]

Khen, the US does usually offer support for teachers in crappy urban schools, with all the things you mention plus more. Those things cost a LOT of money. My local urban HS has so many problems, from truancy to drop-outs, teen pregnancy/parenthood, to absent parents/guardians.

There are metal detectors at the entrance, along with City Police! Cameras are everywhere, the windows have bars, teachers are escorted to the parking lot at dusk. The city/county/state spent MILLIONS of dollars on upgrading the facility's environment, hiring and maintaining high quality staff, providing psych support and social workers for the students AND the teachers, Day Care for students with kids, nurse clinics for their health care and birth control, addiction counseling, career counseling, corporate scholarships, private initiatives from local businesses (learn while working internship deals) .....even paying parents to attend teacher conferences.

They've pretty much pulled out every stop you can think of. The school is still teetering on failure, the teachers still arrive pumped up and optimistic, but become afraid or burnt out. The students keep dropping out or failing, getting pregnant, caught up in illegal activity, arrested and sent to juvie. Very few could transition to other local schools without being placed as remedial or special ed, but there are still tons of kids who want a better education. It's a real problem.

The city announced a 12.8% property tax to fund what's been underfunded, but nobody in the district can pay it, and our state is pretty much broke so there won't be matching funds any time soon. Hence, there's a small outrage from the public, and the city council has no idea what to do. They'll either have to lay off teachers, fire fighters, police, public health nurses, and/or close buildings or move to a 4 day school week.

Frankly, they need parents with jobs and adult education. But there aren't any steady jobs, let alone adult continued education options or work programs. That's why they need more public teachers, public health nurses, social workers and police in the city. It becomes a horrible negative cycle.

[Ominous Gamer]

There are metal detectors at the entrance, along with City Police! Cameras are everywhere, the windows have bars, teachers are escorted to the parking lot at dusk. The city/county/state spent MILLIONS of dollars on upgrading the facility's environment, hiring and maintaining high quality staff, providing psych support and social workers for the students AND the teachers, Day Care for students with kids, nurse clinics for their health care and birth control, addiction counseling, career counseling, corporate scholarships, private initiatives from local businesses (learn while working internship deals) .....even paying parents to attend teacher conferences.

This isn't support, this is responding to the symptoms of a disease without treating the root cause. Nothing you mentioned actually helps the teacher while they are in the classroom teaching a lesson. At best what you described reminds the students, each and every day, why they are different, broken, a problem.

[GGT]

This isn't support, this is responding to the symptoms of a disease without treating the root cause. Nothing you mentioned actually helps the teacher while they are in the classroom teaching a lesson. At best what you described reminds the students, each and every day, why they are different, broken, a problem.

Khen said

*) Better support means stuff like: social workers, psychologists, smaller classes / team teaching, helping weak teachers to become better ones.

and I replied.

[GGT]

Controversial subtopic about US education: busing.

When I was a student in Indiana (ages ago) our schools were "accidentally" segregated by income. District lines tended to enclose kids in poverty, with bad schools and high crime. Families with enough wealth would move out to certain districts, or eventually to the suburbs, for better schools and less crime. That's when our forced busing policy took effect, and I remember lots of parents and teachers being truly angry! As (white privileged) students we didn't really understand, but the incoming black students did!

Anyway, sometime after that we transitioned to a county-wide Incorporated type of districting, opening up the lines of which kids (neighborhoods) went where. That brought about a more mixed and equitable arrangement because it had broader boundaries and larger school census. Schools became huge campuses instead of small neighborhood schools. That seemed to work pretty well for a couple of decades, and mostly everyone seemed happy.

But the exurban sprawl continued, the newer and better schools still attracted affluent families (that could pay higher property taxes for the new multi-million dollar schools). It looked like white flight because the blacks and minorities weren't moving "up" as fast as whites, so the schools ended up being segregated.

That was the midwest decades ago. Some areas are seeing an urban-exurban failure, as affordable housing runs out and high paying jobs are harder to find. The regions that had cheap suburban sprawl housing (that minorities could afford for the American Dream) are now like dust bowls. The wealthier people are still moving farther out, the poorer people are returning to urban areas. And our schools reflect that disparity.