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  1. #1
    While Dread goes further off the deep end, interesting stuff has come up from the BP camp; but first a video collection of what their fuck up killed:


    Now news.
    The ROV hasn't shown a change in behavior yet, but thats to be expected this early.

    Plan to sue BP? Get in line. In fact, BP hopes they can get you to line up in front of their hand picked, industry connected, judge.
    Spoiler:

    Facing some 100 lawsuits after its Gulf of Mexico oil spill killed 11 workers and threatened four coastal states, oil giant BP is asking the courts to place every pre-trial issue in the hands of a single federal judge in Houston.
    That judge, U.S. District Judge Lynn Hughes, has traveled the world giving lectures on ethics for the American Association of Petroleum Geologists, a professional association and research group that works with BP and other oil companies. The organization pays his travel expenses.
    Hughes has also collected royalties from several energy companies, including ConocoPhillips and Devon Energy, from investments in mineral rights, his financial disclosure forms show.


    The oil rig exploded 2 hours after a decision to ignore a "very large abnormality" in the well.

    Employees on Deep Horizon claim the blowout preventer was knowingly damaged before the explosion. Was declared "not a big deal". BP also removed the critical drilling mud that is the "most important and effective way to restrict gasses and fluids held under pressure deep underground."
    The 60 minutes article is very damning.


    BP is so awesome. Why would why someone publicly attack such a company?
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 05-27-2010 at 12:48 PM.

  2. #2
    The more things change, the more they stay the same? Oh, the Irony.


    BP's Gulf battle echoes monster '79 Mexico oil spill

    Robert Campbell
    MEXICO CITY
    Mon May 24, 2010 4:56pm EDT

    (Reuters) - BP Plc's race to cap its ruptured oil well in the Gulf of Mexico is eerily similar to a 1979 accident off the coast of Mexico that caused the world's worst oil spill.

    In both cases natural gas flowed unnoticed into the well being drilled, causing an explosion. In both cases a critical piece of fail-safe equipment -- the blowout preventer -- failed. And in both cases the operators struggled to quickly staunch the flow of oil into the Gulf of Mexico.

    BP's shares have been battered in the month since its Macondo well blew up, threatening tourism, fishing and wildlife along the Gulf Coast and landing the British oil giant with a multibillion dollar clean-up tab.

    But while Mexico's Ixtoc well was only 150 feet below the sea surface, Macondo lies at the crushing depth of 5,000 feet, forcing the company to use robots to do all undersea work.

    Experts have warned that the well may not be capped until relief wells are completed two months from now, by which time the spill could be bigger than the Exxon Valdez disaster, which spilled an estimated 257,000 barrels of oil (10.8 million gallons/(40.9 million liters).

    But it would still not surpass the extent of the disaster caused by the Ixtoc spill, which belched crude oil for 297 days, dumping nearly 3 million barrels (126 million gallons/477 million liters) of oil into the southern Gulf of Mexico, some of which eventually washed up on the Texas coast, according to Pemex.

    And the experience of Mexico's state oil company Pemex shows that relief wells are no silver bullet.

    Ixtoc, off the coast of the southeastern Mexican state of Campeche, continued to leak oil more than three months after Pemex completed its first relief well.

    LESSONS "UNKNOWN"

    Pemex never revealed the exact cause of the accident and as recently as 2007, Jan Erik Vinnem, an offshore risk management specialist at Norway's University of Stavanger, wrote that the lessons learned from the disaster were "unknown."

    Pemex pumped cement and salt water into Ixtoc for months before finally bringing the runaway well under control and sealing it with cement plugs.

    Pemex's scramble to come up with other solutions while the relief wells were being drilled will sound familiar to those who have followed BP's efforts to stop the oil gushing out of its ruptured well.

    Divers tried to manually operate the blowout preventer but this effort was unsuccessful and over the next several months Pemex tried a variety of solutions, including a plan to force metal spheres into the well to cut the flow of oil and lowering a steel structure over the spill to capture the crude.

    BP is trying similar schemes but the huge water depth it is operating at is vastly complicating its efforts.

    The robots used by BP have been unable to get the blowout preventer to work and BP abandoned an attempt to cap its well with a steel structure after natural gas hydrates accumulated within the structure.

    Executives even mulled shooting golf balls, pieces of tires and other debris into the well to try and stop the flow.

    The company now plans to attempt a "top kill" procedure this week in an effort to stop the flow of oil by forcing heavy drilling fluids into the well, but BP only gives the procedure a 60 to 70 percent chance of success.

    BP says the spill has already cost it $760 million and it has promised to pay all legitimate claims for compensation, which will likely carry the cost to billions of dollars.

    Pemex spent over $100 million on the capping and cleanup operations, but dodged most compensation claims by asserting sovereign immunity against U.S. courts.

    Apparently, there's an msnbc video from the Rachel Maddow show, with Ixtoc archive footage from NBC in 1979....but my lame computer wont' let me watch it without crashing.

  3. #3

  4. #4
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  5. #5
    re: the "boot on the neck of BP" comment----isn't that what Salazar said, not Obama?

    Probably not the best thing to say by anyone in an administration, but who actually said it?

  6. #6
    yeah it was from Salazar.
    He has repeated it a couple of times, I think the first time he used it was: "Our job is basically to keep the boot on the neck of British Petroleum to carry out the responsibilities that they have”


    Guess the WTF gauge was so far off the charts on Dread's comments no one bothered to check how he interpreted Mr. Paul's remark

  7. #7

  8. #8
    Thanks, I thought it was a very effective ad, ending with calling our senators.

    Very timely, especially since we've been doing the same damn things for over 30 years. (see Ixtoc)

    I Hope that Frustration and Anger will Fuel action into positive change. It's long over due.

  9. #9
    I found out today that was just an exploration well. They were in the process of sealing it. That adds a whole new level of crazy to this.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I found out today that was just an exploration well. They were in the process of sealing it. That adds a whole new level of crazy to this.
    What's that mean, "just an exploration well"? They set up that whole rig as an experiment in how deep they could go before it exploded? You were listening to NPR on your way home from work and won't share the details? bah

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    What's that mean, "just an exploration well"? They set up that whole rig as an experiment in how deep they could go before it exploded? You were listening to NPR on your way home from work and won't share the details? bah
    They were exploring for oil, determining the size and potential of the oil field, and so on. They were in the process of sealing this one to move on to the next drill site. That's why it was a ship that blew up and not a typical rig platform. This exploratory drilling is the harmless kind they're always asking to do in places like Alaska's north slope, etc. It's just an 'exploratory well,' not actual production drilling..... blah blah blah. WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    The point is that folks shouldn't be throwing corporations under their boots just because they like to be angsty students. Just like they shouldn't throw immigrants under their boots because they like to be angsty racists.



    Yes, it was Salazar. I also had the same "wait..." moment when Obama condemned Salazar using that kind of language. Which is the right call of Obama, I'm glad he brought it up. Still unsure why he's apologizing/being encouraged to apologize. But him highlighting this was appropriate.

    Looks like the media cycle played telephone, which happens.
    So you like Obama now?

    EDIT: Note the Top Kill's not looking so good right now. WTF AGAIN???? I just can not believe nobody has a way to plug this fuckin' hole!
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  12. #12
    Since when do we allow serving military personnel to engage in political advertising?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Since when do we allow serving military personnel to engage in political advertising?
    I don't know, do we "allow"them but they don't because of some oath they took?

    I assumed the main guy was a veteran (not active duty) since the ad was made by votevets.org.

    But if SCOTUS has decided corporations have the same free speech rights as individuals, why wouldn't that apply to citizens in the military?

  14. #14
    It says that he's a member of the National Guard, and it's strongly implied that he's currently serving. And now you're going to argue against a separation between military and civilian affairs? Do you want to live in a junta as well? Furthermore, no government employee has the right to express a political opinion in their official capacity unless they're explicitly directed to do so.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    It says that he's a member of the National Guard, and it's strongly implied that he's currently serving. And now you're going to argue against a separation between military and civilian affairs? Do you want to live in a junta as well? Furthermore, no government employee has the right to express a political opinion in their official capacity unless they're explicitly directed to do so.
    Hence, my assumption that he's probably a veteran and not active duty.

    I'm not really "arguing" anything, Loki. You're the one who pranced in here to start an argument, and maybe it's a valid one....so start a damn thread if you care.

    Meantime, regarding OIL....this recent debacle may just be the impetus for Americans (via the convenience of the internet) to connect the dots between energy and all other things.

    Back in 1979 none of this was possible. When all we had was the front page of a paper, or nightly news that didn't have the benefit of cell phone cameras, let alone social networks capturing every crevice of American life.


    EDIT: Correction. If I'm "arguing" anything, it's for a national energy policy that's forward-looking and not based on Drill Baby Drill.

  16. #16
    Why are those 2 mutually exclusive?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Why are those 2 mutually exclusive?
    Which two things do you mean? Energy and Oil, Energy and Environment, Oil and War, Policy and Information, Populace and Politicians?

    They are all connected. But take a look at how information has expanded since 1979. Now it's not just dry paper-reading news, but live real-time video feeds. It's not just lines at gas pumps during embargoes, but web sites listing daily gas prices. It's not just a commander-in-chief declaring victory on an aircraft carrier framed in banners, surrounded by uniformed personnel.......

    Oh, the Irony.

    People like Fuzzy don't think live feeds from robotic cams 5,000 feet below sea level should be seen by the public, because they're too stupid to understand the physics. Never mind that they include audio, with experts describing what's going on, so it's illuminating.

    (Compare the news coverage of Ixtoc to the coverage of Deep Horizon. It's like the difference between Apollo 13 and any Atlantis mission, where we got to see astronauts in negative gravity, talking in real time, instead of a made-for-tv-movie with surrogate actors.)

    What people DO understand, and yes it's a visceral or emotional reaction, is watching death and destruction. It could be a scene from Baghdad or Beloxi, once people see death and destruction in real time---it's no longer an academic exercise.

    Anyone with a television (and that means everyone) can connect the dots between drilling for oil, or mining for coal, and that energy has risks they never really thought about until now. It sets up an inner quandary and a political platform.

    Unless you want to continue to criticize an uninformed electorate......

  18. #18
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../TrangBang.jpg

    Not sure if I linked that properly, but "Pictures speak a thousand words".

    Photojournalism is even more potent in the 21st century than ever before. Realism under the guise of entertainment/movies is also powerful (The Hurt Locker) and it gets under the psyche of people. That's the War angle.....

    Nowadays it's Reality that gets people to think about Energy, every time they pump up at the gas station. The Irony is seeing folks driving around with bumper stickers on their gas guzzlers that say, "Support Our Troops".

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Does that include the rhetoric from right wing pundits? Former vice presidents and administration advisors? Or just democratic presidents? No?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Of course it does

    Seriously, we can't have any exchange of ideas here since my entire point was that one of these is not like the others while you're insisting it is. Just never mind
    The point is that folks shouldn't be throwing corporations under their boots just because they like to be angsty students. Just like they shouldn't throw immigrants under their boots because they like to be angsty racists.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    re: the "boot on the neck of BP" comment----isn't that what Salazar said, not Obama?

    Probably not the best thing to say by anyone in an administration, but who actually said it?
    Yes, it was Salazar. I also had the same "wait..." moment when Obama condemned Salazar using that kind of language. Which is the right call of Obama, I'm glad he brought it up. Still unsure why he's apologizing/being encouraged to apologize. But him highlighting this was appropriate.

    Looks like the media cycle played telephone, which happens.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    The point is that folks shouldn't be throwing corporations under their boots just because they like to be angsty students. Just like they shouldn't throw immigrants under their boots because they like to be angsty racists.
    Folks aren't throwing corporations under their boots just because they like to be angsty students. That belittles angsty students as ideological idiots. At the same time you want to portray any thinking adult (who shares those ideas) as being angsty moronic students who just might know more if they weren't students, you imply that there's a lack of information or knowledge. Or that only certain people can filter and interpret facts.

    If they agree with you, then they're an educated ally. If they don't, then they're moronic uneducated blobs. Or students.

    Fail.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    The point is that folks shouldn't be throwing corporations under their boots just because they like to be angsty students. Just like they shouldn't throw immigrants under their boots because they like to be angsty racists.
    Yes that is exactly what is going on here, I am fascinated by your poignant analyses and would like to subscribe to your newsletter

    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  22. #22
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Yes that is exactly what is going on here, I am fascinated by your poignant analyses and would like to subscribe to your newsletter

    Psst, Nessus, do you think he has a grasp on this whole ecological catastrophe shtick yet?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    tsk, seems to me you made a rash judgement based on some daily news report, and it went on for a while.

    "We were all wrong" isn't a good excuse for being wrong.

    But at least you can give Obama some credit for being right, although it sounds like sour grapes just the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Folks aren't throwing corporations under their boots just because they like to be angsty students. That belittles angsty students as ideological idiots. At the same time you want to portray any thinking adult (who shares those ideas) as being angsty moronic students who just might know more if they weren't students, you imply that there's a lack of information or knowledge. Or that only certain people can filter and interpret facts.

    If they agree with you, then they're an educated ally. If they don't, then they're moronic uneducated blobs. Or students.

    Fail.
    What I'm saying is that there is a standard for rhetoric that I expect from my government and it's not demagoguery. This was never a question about the facts (even though everyone had the wrong facts), but about principles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Yes that is exactly what is going on here, I am fascinated by your poignant analyses and would like to subscribe to your newsletter

    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Psst, Nessus, do you think he has a grasp on this whole ecological catastrophe shtick yet?
    Once again, I'm not denying that this is fucking awful. But for the fifth time, what I'm saying is that there is a standard for rhetoric that I expect from my government and it's not demagoguery. If you think the words our elected officials use don't matter, please let me subscribe to your newsletter because it sounds like some entertaining blips targeting various churches, organizations, companies, minority groups, etc could come up.

    The fact that Obama agreed the language was not appropriate for someone in his administration only furthers the point about reasonable rhetoric from those in politics. And for the record, a lot of past Ron Paul language isn't reasonable (jury still out on Rand).

  24. #24
    Wait, Dread, aren't you the one who was all hot to trot about Obama saying inappropriate things like boots on necks? Maybe I got lost in your dialogue with Nessie.

  25. #25
    I have nothing to retract, we were going on bad information. I thought he had said it and so did everyone here who defended him saying it. We were all wrong, and Obama said it was inappropriate for someone in his cabinet to say it. This was right of him to do.

  26. #26
    tsk, seems to me you made a rash judgement based on some daily news report, and it went on for a while.

    "We were all wrong" isn't a good excuse for being wrong.

    But at least you can give Obama some credit for being right, although it sounds like sour grapes just the same.

  27. #27
    It's late, I'm a bit drunk now, nobody would mind if I insert something emotional, right?

    My experiences with the Gulf are all visceral, sensual, passionate. It's all about the scent of the coastal breezes, the tastes of shrimp or crab or conch, the sensation of rocking boats. Watching tides that come and go, planning and charting journeys, marine maps on the dash weighted down with a sand tray, checking with radar and sonar. Heavy boats maneuvering between green or red markers, heed way to sails, bridges rising for masts, radio chatter between captains and harbor masters.

    It's been so long now that I can't remember the terminology. I was mostly an observer, a mate, pulling lines and putting out bumpers while docking, tying ropes, just tell me what to do....

    Not sure how many sea people are on this forum, but it doesn't seem like any. So I feel a bit of need to explain the sea life, even though I was just a visitor and observer on my mom's trawler.

    The sea is life. It's their life. There's a commeraderie, a culture, a history, for the people who live by or on the sea. It's not just about your access to shrimp or eating at Red Lobster.

    To watch it being fouled by oil, the grasses and marshes polluted with thick liquid carbon, the plankton and tiny things that feed the whole sea and its entire cycle of life, drowning by an invader assault that we introduced.......to watch it dying bit by bit, by our own hand.....well it's just heartbreaking.

    I wish I could write like Hemingway now, but I can't.

  28. #28
    Back on topic. Is it ironic or pathetic that our first tech savvy administration doesn't seem to be connected?

  29. #29
    It's impossible to gauge what he knows or thinks since he seems way too cool to discuss anything with the riff-raff
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  30. #30
    Dread - you're so transparent.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

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