You're suggesting the drug use is reason enough for zimmermann to feel threatened and justified his decision to jump to murder under SYG. You're also saying that the pot use some how makes him someone who isn't a good community member.
Its all in these two sentences:
Right but its not like the victim was a pillar of the community. The drug use is going to hurt the prosecution because this adds to the defense that Zimmerman thought he was in danger
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Are you just being dense on propose? Do you really think this won't be card the defense plays? REALLY?Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
I'm with Lewk on this one. I'm also for the legalisation of soft drugs, but I also see how this plays into the hands of the defence. So too does the photo of the injuries and the reported witness statement that his head was getting hit against the pavement before he shot.
From what I've seen now I couldn't speculate whether he'll be convicted or not, neither outcome now will surprise me. The idea that Martin was high does play against the "he was a totally innocent victim going about his life in a non-threatening way" card. I think OG you're showing your prejudices here not to see it, its not about what we think should be legal but how the lawyers can be portray what happened to a jury of 12.
a jury of 12 pulled from a population that statistically supports pot, thats got nothing to do with my prejudice. Simply stating that there were drugs in his system isn't going to show that this guy wasn't innocent or threatening in some manner. If the defense had these reports, so did the prosecution, so I'm sure the jury was well vetted on that issue.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
There is a difference between supporting legalisation of a controlled substance in an opinion poll and thinking its irrelevant that someone allegedly assaulting somebody else who was acting in self-defence was high. Even if he was drunk it'd be relevant, being high is much more so.
I am of the mindset that it should be legal, but wrong, so one of that majority you refer to. I also support the legalisation of prostitution. If I'm not wrong, so too does Lewkowski on that one too. Doesn't mean to quote you I "support pot", I don't think a majority "supports pot". I think people should be allowed to choose and make mistakes, I've made mistakes throughout my life (tried pot, not prostitutes just to be clear) but thinking people can determine right or wrong without the state does not mean we think it's right.
This only makes logical sense as a defense if Zimmerman knew about the drug use, and thought it presented a danger to himself. It still wouldn't make it that significant of a defense.
. . .
where is this coming from? there are no studies that support being high leading to aggressiveness (it has however been tied to relaxation and euphoria), but there are multiple for drinking. why even attempt to compare the 2 in this manner?
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Illusions, I think the drug use combined with the injuries Zimmerman suffered are the issue.
So you agree that drugs can cause aggression, you just dispute which one?
Since we've crossed that rubicon, while cannabis is generally linked with "peace" there is evidence that THC can cause both mind altering affects and aggression. It is that combined with the injuries that Zimmerman suffered which means this is not an open and shut case of murder.
citation. I know there was a study done back in 05-06 from the Netherlands that failed to account for withdrawal and pre-existing conditions, so i'm hoping you've got something new.
THC is mix of some 400 different compounds, while alcohol is not. Alcohol has been shown to lead to aggression, how you're taking that statement and twisting it to include such a broad statement as "drugs cause aggression" is beyond meThats like saying humanity is only made of stupid and using Lewk as your evidence.
Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 05-20-2012 at 04:15 PM.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Uh, Rand, I'd like to point out that drugs have indeed very different effects - there's a reason why Methamphetamin is also called "Speed" or "Crank", whereas users of Opium usually just lie around - ever seen pictures or movies of Opium dens?
Just two prominent examples. I would rate THC among the "downers" of drugs. I'd also like to see actual facts regarding the aggrssion potential of THC users. Not just your say-so.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Just one example from a quick Google search: http://adai.washington.edu/marijuana...aggression.htm
Semi-Off-Topic: The person who assaulted me years ago was high when he did so, I don't know from what drug.
I believe it's called British air.
Hope is the denial of reality
Real beer?
Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita
there is no listed source, and the best that article can claim for your side is "sometimes when marijuana is used it can cause fear, anxiety, panic or paranoia, which can result in an aggressive outburst." If thats as far as this goes, this puts Trayvon in the position of defending himself from Zimmermann.
and "sometimes" causing a certain behavior which has seperately been linked to aggression seems rather unscientific, no? Especially since THC is known to cause certain behaviors that are seperately linked to very non-aggressive actions. not to mention the bias source.
Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 05-21-2012 at 02:53 AM.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Not to mention:
Research also shows that marijuana users who commit violent acts usually have a history of violence before they start using the drug.
Did Martin have a history of violence?
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Bias/unscientific source? The link came from a university website.there is no listed source, and the best that article can claim for your side is "sometimes when marijuana is used it can cause fear, anxiety, panic or paranoia, which can result in an aggressive outburst." If thats as far as this goes, this puts Trayvon in the position of defending himself from Zimmermann.
and "sometimes" causing a certain behavior which has seperately been linked to aggression seems rather unscientific, no? Especially since THC is known to cause certain behaviors that are seperately linked to very non-aggressive actions. not to mention the bias source.
I really, really don't care into getting in a debate with you about cannabis, the point is that (A) Zimmerman was injured by Martin, and (B) Martin was under the influence of drugs when he injured Zimmerman. Both these issues will be used by the defence.
Yes, and? Sometimes universities put pretty weird stuff on their websites. I mean, we recently had a discussion over here in Germany where one University officially supported some guy who "proved" that ESP abilities exist in humans...
... and that particular paper looked way more scientific than your link. "Maybe", "Sometimes", "Usually" are not terms scientists use without some kind of reference as to what those words actually mean.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
If the shoe was on the other foot and it was Zimmerman who was under the influence of illegal drugs when he shot Martin it would definitely be evidence used by the prosecution.
The information came from the National Cannabis Prevention and Information Centre in Australia. You found a rehosted version of it on a Uni domain (likely used as course discussion material since its outdated compare to its original source). Know what else I can find on Uni domains? How to catch Mew.
such a cop out, right when you might have been able to learn something about drugs.
Hell, we don't even know if the defense is going to run with the pot angle, we only know about it because of the autopsy report.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
I'm pro-legalisation so what do I need to learn?
That drugs aren't something you can dismiss with blanket statements like this:
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
I didn't say that sentence.
Um, you did. In fact the quote links to it, but since that seems to confusing for you, heres a screenshot
Its a few posts under the one you made where you tried to compare THC to alcohol
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
The screenshot shows a sentence. I never said a simplistic blanket sentence "drugs can cause aggression" and your screenshot shows that. Or is the word sentence too complicated for you?
Having read the previous page I'm not sure how Martin smoking weed in any way should help Zimmerman's defense in any remotely reasonable society that doesn't routinely go down the "oh but everyone knows she's a slut" route in rape trials.
Marijuana is sometimes associated with aggressive behaviour, but the question is whether or not there was any unprovoked aggressive behaviour in this case, on Martin's part. If Martin had a documented history of violent behaviour, well, that might help the defense... provided they can prove that he exhibited unprovoked violent behaviour in this case.
He said "statement"; the text he quoted wasn't a complete sentence but it was a statement you made as a part of a sentence. You said "sentence", but as you no doubt realise, the text he quoted wasn't a complete sentence. I mean, the first word wasn't capitalised, the snippet wasn't punctuated... there's not way it could be mistaken for a sentence. The question is, what's your point? Yes, drugs can cause aggression, and in some few cases aggressive behaviour may possibly be associated with THC use. What does that have to do with this case?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Given that Zimmerman is the one exhibiting the dodgy behaviour that may ultimately have led to Martin's death, that wouldn't be surprising. Of course it'd be up to the prosecution to show that the cannabis had influenced his behaviour in that particular way.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Come on Rand, you're all over the place at this point.
You even tried to defend your claim that THC causes aggression
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
That's a blanket statement that isn't necessary true.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
However, as Rand's own source states: Aggression under the influence of THC is usually associated with a history of violent behaviour.
That nonwithstanding, Rand's source is shit because it doesn't tell us incident rates. What does "usually" mean in that context? 1 in 5? 1 in 20? 1 in 100?
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Any suggestion of criminality on Martin's part will make Zimmerman more sympathetic to the jury. All respect to OG but attitudes toward pot are almost completely irrelevant to the effect Lewk referenced.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
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