Hmm.... I seem to remember Grenada. But not any sanctions being imposed on the US.
Hmm.... I seem to remember Grenada. But not any sanctions being imposed on the US.
Congratulations America
SourceUkraine's parliament on Tuesday approved a series of joint military exercises with NATO countries that would put US troops in direct proximity to Russian forces in the annexed Crimea peninsula.
"This is a good opportunity to develop our armed forces," acting defense minister Mykhailo Koval told Verkhovna Rada lawmakers ahead of the 235-0 vote.
The decision came as NATO foreign ministers gathered in Brussels for a two-day meeting dominated by concern over the recent buildup of Russian forces near Crimea that US officials estimate had at one point reached about 40,000 troops.
NATO has sought to reinforce its eastern frontier after Russia's takeover of Ukraine's Black Sea peninsula and amid concerns about Kremlin's emboldened foreign policy.
Russia on Monday reported pulling back a battalion of about 500 to 700 soldiers from the border region in a move that German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier called "a small sign that the situation is becoming less tense."
Ukraine is not a NATO member and its new Western-backed leaders have vowed not to push for closer relations with the Brussels-based military alliance — a bloc that has been viewed with deep mistrust by Moscow since the Cold War.
But the ex-Soviet nation did form a "distinctive partnership" with the Alliance in 1997 and has been staging joint exercises with its state members ever since.
The exercises approved on Tuesday would see Ukraine conduct two sets of military exercises with the United States this summer — Rapid Trident and Sea Breeze — that have prompted disquiet in Russia in previous years.
Ukraine is planning two additional manoeuvres with NATO member Poland as well as joint ground operations with Moldova and Romania.
The Sea Breeze exercises have particularly irritated Moscow because they had on occasion been staged in Crimea — the home of Russia's Black Sea Fleet.
Those manoeuvres have in more recent years been moved to the Black Sea port of Odessa where Ukraine also has a naval base.
An explanatory note accompanying the Tuesday bill says that the naval section of Sea Breeze would this time be conducted over a 25-day span between July and October out of two Odessa ports and "along the waters of the Black Sea."
And now the Donetsk region demands independence from Ukraine.
Congratulations America
If by Donetsk region you mean a few hundred aggressive young men who were likely trained by Russia.
Hope is the denial of reality
Lol I mostly stay away from commenting in this thread as obviously there can be little discussion + I was too busy celebrating. But this latest of many lies posted by Loki I just could not resist commenting on. Having been born in Donetsk I am still in contact with many relatives who stayed and lived there all their lives even thou my family moved to Moscow when I was 6 we continued to visit them often, there is no doubt that there is some significant minority that do not support the protest but there is also no doubt that overwhelming majority of population do support them. 100% of my relatives their families and friends support them and that is over 100 people.Originally Posted by Loki
Did I say there was no popular support for these acts? I said that only a few hundred Russian-trained thugs were involved in the storming of buildings. Believe it or not, that does not give them the right to make any kind of political demands. What they're doing is acting like traitors according to the true definition of the term. If they don't want to be ruled by the Ukrainian government, they're free to move to Russia.
Incidentally, you have a city-centric view of how much support Russian enjoys. The cities in the east tend to be pro-Russian, but the countryside is overwhelmingly pro-Ukrainian. If there was a vote tomorrow, it would be far closer than you think. And of course Ukraine will consent to such a vote right after Russia does the same in every Caucasian republic.
Hope is the denial of reality
Hope is the denial of reality
If I were a citizen of a Baltic state I'd be very worried.
Congratulations America
that article would be quite disturbing if it was true, however the lie was so ridiculous and obvious to anyone who stopped to think it wouldn't have served its purpose which was a media preparation for inevitable casualties. PS. the building in question was also visited by one Ukraine's
politicians who confirmed that there were no hostages and as far as he can tell over 1000 people who are holding the building are all local.
http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=1461067
"The cities in the east tend to be pro-Russian, but the countryside is overwhelmingly pro-Ukrainian. " Where are you getting this from is there a source? I wont say its a lie as the relatives I had in villages in Donetsk have either left died or I have lost contact with them. Logically I do not see why they would be pro Ukrainian seeing as none of them speak Ukranian and all are Russian speakers and have always been or rather they speak Surzik which s rural version of Russian and has nothing to do with Ukranian. Further even if it were true I am not sure how many the agricultural areas would represent seeing as they were already very sparsely populated when I lived there and I didn't hear anything of Ukraine beating the Urabanization trend.
Hope is the denial of reality
and what does harkiv have to do with Donetsk? Also I wouldn't put it past this study to consider Surzik Ukranian rather then Russian and then it would make sense that the better educated people in cities would speak proper Russian. Why would rural areas of Donetsk that has always been Russian speak Ukranian if anything they would have avoided the forced push for Ukranisation of the past 20 years as well as during the Soviet era whent they tried to make Ukranian obligatory in this areas which was even then faced with great resistance and people payed bribes in schools to get out of it.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A3A1B520140413
I'm not one to draw WWII comparisons lightly, but Munich anyone?
Hope is the denial of reality
The assumption assumes the Ukranians are being drawn into a trap and Russia will invade with all the assets they've parked nearby?
The head of NATO gave a good interview in the WSJ about how the Russians have fairly quickly become more bellicose while the defense gap among NATO members has grown wider.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...92950683945762
Why else would Russia insert special forces into those cities? They're waiting for a sufficient provocation to allow them to move in.
Hope is the denial of reality
Whoever first predicted in this thread that Putin would move to annex eastern Ukraine deserves a hand. You guys think we should start getting Danzig ready for him as well?
I'd actually be interested into how this affects Russian-Belarusian relations. Belarus and Kazakhstan are ones with demographics most similar to that of Ukraine, but Kazakhstan knows better than to ignore Russia's interests. Belarus constantly annoys Putin. Then again, I imagine that if there are threats to use a similar strategy against Belarus, those threats will be communicated in private.
Hope is the denial of reality
When do economics and demographics become political handicaps? Or is it the other way around?
That would entail having an economy, something Ukraine hasn't had in two decades.
Hope is the denial of reality
SourceNATO said it has proof that Russia is behind the unrest in eastern Ukraine, disputing President Vladimir Putin’s assertions that he’s an innocent bystander to the separatist tumult.
“It’s very clear that Russia’s hand is deeply engaged in this,” NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen told reporters in Luxembourg today. He called on the Kremlin to “make clear that it doesn’t support the violent actions of pro-Russian separatists.”
Russia argues that pro-Kremlin protesters have occupied government buildings in cities in eastern Ukraine in acts of self-defense against the country’s government in Kiev, which is seeking closer ties with Europe and the U.S.
Rasmussen said “reliable” information disproves the Russian contentions. He again ruled out North Atlantic Treaty Organization military involvement in the Ukraine crisis, calling for a diplomatic settlement and saying that “Russia should stop being part of the problem and start being part of the solution.”
Rasmussen was in Luxembourg to meet defense ministers of the European Union. As NATO beefs up its eastern European defenses, he proposed joint exercises between the alliance and battlegroups fielded by EU countries.
Next news bulletin: Russia is not a democracy.
Hope is the denial of reality
What do you recommend, Loki? If you could use your political science and international relations background....and be a diplomat that had the ear of government heads....what would you advise?
Would you take the McCain approach when that could that be seen as provocative? Would you take the UN or NATO approach when that might be slow or ineffective? How would you get the EU or the IMF on board as economic/financial allies? Something else?
Push for severe sanctions, a point I've made ever since the Crimea invasion.
Hope is the denial of reality
http://gawker.com/jews-are-being-ord...lle-1564253164
Not that I believe this is being ordered from the top, but this kind of gets at the mind frame of the pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine. They pulled a similar stunt in the Crimea with the Muslim Tatars.
Hope is the denial of reality
Can you be more specific? Of course "sanctions" sound like a good idea....but it won't work unless European nations and international companies get on board.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A3H0BU20140418
Shell committed to Russia expansion despite sanctions
Same thing we did with Iran (don't allow anyone to do business with Russian banks, block any company that does business in the West from also doing business in Russia, etc.). Escalate over time (don't start with the most extreme). Even if it doesn't lead to an about-turn in Russian foreign policy, it should bankrupt Russia, which should preclude future adventures.
Hope is the denial of reality
Sounds good in theory. But doesn't Russia have more resource (oil/gas) "leverage" than Iran? Russia has around 1/3 of BP's oil contracts, add in Dutch Shell and Exxon/Mobil, and the hefty chunk of oil/gas they supply to Europe.....that's a lot of leverage. The oil industries may even be powerful enough to exist and operate outside traditional banking institutions, so putting sanctions on "banks" could fall flat.
Besides, Putin seems 'crazed' enough to cause pain and suffering on the Ukrainian people, escalating to civil war, in his attempt to create a "New Russia" anti-western power center....for Mother Russia!. What's a little bankruptcy in the grand scheme of things?
edit: Also, the US has contracts with Russia for International Space Station maintenance. We actually pay Russia millions of dollars every time one of our astronauts snags a ride on their space shuttles. Would it be hypocritical to exempt that from other 'business transactions' with national interest?
Last edited by GGT; 04-19-2014 at 04:11 AM.
Sure, it won't be easy to implement and there will be pain involved. But do we really want to exist in an international order that resembles the one of the 1930s?
Bankruptcy is what leads to regime change. People might support Romantic notions of a New Russia, but they won't care about that very much when they're unemployed.
Hope is the denial of reality
Unemployed people are also desperate people....who sometimes turn to the first fanatical group that promises prosperity. ie, blowback.
See my edits.
People stop believing promises when they can't get a job.
Hope is the denial of reality
Or when they have a job but can't afford utilities. This is true at domestic and international levels. Basically, I'm asking if European nations and Baltic states are willing to endure higher prices and/or reduced access to oil and gas with these sanctions? Bankrupting Putin's New Russia will mean a degree of pain for western Europe. It impacts them more directly than it does the US, but they're reluctant to take the lead....
How do you "fix" that?
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