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Thread: Its Culture not Race or Racism

  1. #1

    Default Its Culture not Race or Racism

    http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/03/17/immigrant

    The election of Barack Obama -- African American because of his African father, distinguishing him from how the phrase is commonly used -- has brought unprecedented attention to the diversity of backgrounds of those covered by the term. Within higher education, one of the more sensitive issues in discussion of admissions and affirmative action in recent years has been the relative success of immigrant black Americans compared to black people who have been in the United States for generations.

    A new study has found that among high school graduates, “immigrant blacks” -- defined as those who immigrated to the United States or their children -- are significantly more likely than other black Americans to attend selective colleges. In fact, immigrant black Americans are more likely than white students to attend such colleges.

    The research -- published in the journal Sociology of Education (abstract available here) -- is the second major study in two years to try to define the “advantage” of some black applicants to top college. In 2007, a team of researchers published a study in The American Journal of Education finding that while only about 13 percent of black people aged 18 or 19 in the United States are first- or second-generation immigrants, they made up 27 percent of black students at the selective colleges studied.

    The new study focuses on the entire population of high school graduates to see where they go to college, comparing immigrant black people, “native-born blacks” (the authors’ terms for others), and white students. The authors are two assistant professors of sociology -- Pamela R. Bennett of Johns Hopkins University and Amy Lutz of Syracuse University.

    They begin their study by noting that previous research has documented that a smaller proportion of black high school graduates than white high school graduates enroll in college. But when students of similar socioeconomic status are compared, the black high school graduates are more likely than their white counterparts to enroll. Given the debate about the immigrant factor in analyzing black enrollments, the authors set out to determine “whether this net black advantage is very African American.”

    Using data from the National Education Longitudinal Study of 1988, Bennett and Lutz found that among high school graduates, 75.1 percent of immigrant blacks enrolled in college, a slightly higher percentage than that of whites (72.5 percent) and substantially larger than for native blacks (60.2 percent).

    In terms of the college destinations of those who enrolled in college, the rates for immigrant blacks compared to other black students were similar for two-year colleges and non-selective four-year colleges that are not historically black. The biggest gap was at selective colleges, which enroll only 2.4 percent of native black high school graduates but 9.2 percent of immigrant blacks (and 7.3 percent of whites). Native black students are more likely than immigrants to enroll at historically black colleges. But the authors noted that historically black colleges are clearly appealing to some percentage of the black immigrant population, even though those students wouldn’t have the same multi-generation ties to the colleges that are found among many African Americans.

    The authors of the new study note that there are key differences in the demographics of the black Americans whose families are new to the United States and those who aren’t. Immigrant black students are more likely than other black students to grow up In two-parent families and to attend private schools -- both characteristics that, across all sorts of groups, tend to indicate a greater likelihood of attending a selective college.

    While their study found success for non-immigrant black students in enrolling in some kinds of colleges, the authors note that the sector -- selective colleges -- in which this is less likely is also the sector most likely to lead to many kinds of high wage careers. More examination of the issue is needed, the authors write, to combat “continued socioeconomic inequality.”

    That scholarly phrasing may not do justice to the tensions raised by such issues. In 2003, at a reunion of black alumni of Harvard University, Lani Guinier, a law professor, was quoted by The Boston Globe as raising the question of whether black students who are “voluntary immigrants” should be the beneficiaries of affirmative action.

    "If you look around Harvard College today, how many young people will you find who grew up in urban environments and went to public high schools and public junior high schools?" she said. "I don't think, in the name of affirmative action, we should be admitting people because they look like us, but then they don't identify with us."

    **********

    People (especially liberals) attribute the difference in outcomes between whites/blacks as racism when in actuality it is the poisonous culture that left has created within the black community. The incessant claims or racism everywhere, the cult of victimization and the acceptance of often complete dependence on government has created a culture that distrusts achievement and work.

    When you take people NOT from the culture but who 'look' the same they do well and even excel. So much for racism eh?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    Yeah the Left has been spreading it's sh!t everywhere, Australia reeks of it. The latest craze is "acknowledging the traditional land owners of this country" which is unbelievably disrespectful to the countless people who have come to this country to make it was it is today. There's this TV channel that I usually like to watch, it's government owned though, but they put on a lot of good documentaries and foreign films, but lately after their news report finishes they add a quick caption "SBS would like to acknowledge the traditional land owners of blah blah on whose land this was made on" I couldn't believe it. What's there to acknowledge? That a collection of primitive people once lived on this land like animals? How dare someone else come along and build cities, technology and anything else that gives people a semblance of civilisation.
    Last edited by Draco; 09-24-2011 at 11:40 AM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    People (especially liberals) attribute the difference in outcomes between whites/blacks as racism when in actuality it is the poisonous culture that left has created within the black community. The incessant claims or racism everywhere, the cult of victimization and the acceptance of often complete dependence on government has created a culture that distrusts achievement and work.

    When you take people NOT from the culture but who 'look' the same they do well and even excel. So much for racism eh?
    You got all this bullshit from that article? There is no argument to be made for or against liberals in any of this In fact I don't remember anyone being against the culture concept in the dozens of discussions we've had on it in the past; think the last one was on how names can harm careers. If anything research has shown that conservatives are more likely express racism and bias based on color alone. If this was truely the evil government forcing dependence on the government, you wouldn't be researching results for just black families (talk about racism, eh?).
    This is a cultural problem, if by cultural you mean the urban community problems we have discussed several times before.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  4. #4
    Wow Draco, you're really quick to see disrespect everywhere aren't you. Talk about having a chip on one's shoulder



    The article in the OP is interesting and it would be nice to get more details on the historical context (the US in the '80s) as well as things like demographics etc.

    They do touch on some important differences:

    The authors of the new study note that there are key differences in the demographics of the black Americans whose families are new to the United States and those who aren’t. Immigrant black students are more likely than other black students to grow up In two-parent families and to attend private schools -- both characteristics that, across all sorts of groups, tend to indicate a greater likelihood of attending a selective college.

    While their study found success for non-immigrant black students in enrolling in some kinds of colleges, the authors note that the sector -- selective colleges -- in which this is less likely is also the sector most likely to lead to many kinds of high wage careers. More examination of the issue is needed, the authors write, to combat “continued socioeconomic inequality.”
    It'd be interesting to see how black private school graduates fared against white private school graduates after accounting for the effect of affirmative action.

    All of this is of course a great argument for supporting poor black families so that their kids have more and better opportunities
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    You got all this bullshit from that article? There is no argument to be made for or against liberals in any of this In fact I don't remember anyone being against the culture concept in the dozens of discussions we've had on it in the past; think the last one was on how names can harm careers. If anything research has shown that conservatives are more likely express racism and bias based on color alone. If this was truely the evil government forcing dependence on the government, you wouldn't be researching results for just black families (talk about racism, eh?).
    This is a cultural problem, if by cultural you mean the urban community problems we have discussed several times before.
    Several points.

    1. I'm not simply parroting the article. If I was I would just post the article and have no commentary. My commentary is based on my opinion of the world (and of liberals particularly).

    2. Black America tends to have the lowest outcomes of all ethnic groups in America and is most often cited by liberals in comparison to white America. For example you'll rarely see liberals complain about the racism Asian folks face in the world of academia... Why is that?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post

    All of this is of course a great argument for supporting poor black families so that their kids have more and better opportunities
    My belief is that welfare, government support and the learned behavior of dependence on social programs is one of the leading factors to the poisonous culture inside the black community. If you learn from your parents (or parent in many cases) that you don't have to work to get food and shelter that is going to be detrimental to your future success.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    VERY interesting video with Thomas Sowell on Welfare:


    (and he's black too! For all you left wing type)

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    My belief is that welfare, government support and the learned behavior of dependence on social programs is one of the leading factors to the poisonous culture inside the black community. If you learn from your parents (or parent in many cases) that you don't have to work to get food and shelter that is going to be detrimental to your future success.
    Sure but if you instead get to go to decent schools and spend quality time with relaxed parents you may instead develop the attitudes and the faith necessary to do something good with your life.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  9. #9
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Sure but if you instead get to go to decent schools and spend quality time with relaxed parents you may instead develop the attitudes and the faith necessary to do something good with your life.
    It's also up to the culture of a community/country that determines the type of upbringing a child will have, the type of family it lives in and so on. If the culture is flawed (like it is today, lack of morals, values, self respect, mixed in with left wing philosophy), then that trickles down to the child and you open the door for welfare. Watch the video I posted, Thomas Sowell mentions how he grew up in an era where black people were poorer (than the time the video was done, 1980), faced greater discrimination and the likes, yet the teenage pregnancy was far lower than it was at that time, he also mentions how the black family was more intact during that time too. Interesting stuff!

  10. #10
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    What Draco meant to say

    [...]If the culture is flawed (like it is today, lack of morals, values, self respect, mixed in with right wing philosophy)[...]
    Fixed that for you.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  11. #11
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    Ohh you're so funny!!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Fixed that for you.
    What are you, some kind of liberal?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  13. #13
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    Ohh you're so funny!!
    Thanks, I'll be here all week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    What are you, some kind of liberal?
    Naw, just acting the part. When nobody's looking, I'm eating babies. That's what all liberals do in their spare time?

    Didn't you get the memo?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  14. #14
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It'd be interesting to see how black private school graduates fared against white private school graduates after accounting for the effect of affirmative action.
    Or you could simply do the same type of study on whites, and find that immigrants and whites from middle class, two parent homes have the numbers you'd expect, while the spawn of white trash trailer-park dwellers have much lower rates of application and acceptance to selective colleges. (And you could do the same thing in practically any country as well.)

    It's not about race, or even something unique to African American culture, it's the anti-intellectual ideals shared by certain groups of people that put them (and their offspring) at a massive disadvantage when trying to enter a world that's increasingly concerned with brain power over muscle power.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Or you could simply do the same type of study on whites, and find that immigrants and whites from middle class, two parent homes have the numbers you'd expect, while the spawn of white trash trailer-park dwellers have much lower rates of application and acceptance to selective colleges. (And you could do the same thing in practically any country as well.)
    Yes but that would answer a different question.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Several points.
    1. I'm not simply parroting the article. If I was I would just post the article and have no commentary. My commentary is based on my opinion of the world (and of liberals particularly).
    See, a normal, thinking, human would have focused his thoughts on the article itself. They would have at least tried to stay on the same topic as the article, instead of posting something random as an excuse to slam some group of people they don't like. Much like you did to my reply. You quoted me, but you didn't address anything I said about the article (or your bullshit).
    2. Black America tends to have the lowest outcomes of all ethnic groups in America and is most often cited by liberals in comparison to white America. For example you'll rarely see liberals complain about the racism Asian folks face in the world of academia... Why is that?
    Oh, this I gotta see. Please lewk, what is "black america"?
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    My belief is that welfare, government support and the learned behavior of dependence on social programs is one of the leading factors to the poisonous culture inside the black community. If you learn from your parents (or parent in many cases) that you don't have to work to get food and shelter that is going to be detrimental to your future success.
    We're familiar with your beliefs. (Gummint is bad, poor people are lazy and/or stupid, state assistance is poison, etc.) But maybe you linked the wrong article to defend your beliefs? The authors compared native blacks to immigrant blacks, using demographics like family structure and ability to pay for private schools, and recognized socio-economic inequalities at play.

    Our immigration policy favors H1B visas for educated professionals, ya know. That means new black immigrants are already well-educated (if not from their native gov't then perhaps their more affluent family and private schools), already have enough money to move their family overseas (or with some public/private assistance), already have a job, and are already one leg up from many native blacks.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Our immigration policy favors H1B visas for educated professionals, ya know. That means new black immigrants are already well-educated (if not from their native gov't then perhaps their more affluent family and private schools), already have enough money to move their family overseas (or with some public/private assistance), already have a job, and are already one leg up from many native blacks.
    BS. Our immigration system favors family reunification, with a majority of our legal immigrants coming from Mexico and Guatemala.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    BS. Our immigration system favors family reunification, with a majority of our legal immigrants coming from Mexico and Guatemala.
    Are black immigrants more or less likely to be one leg up from many native blacks in the ways GGT described?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  20. #20
    I shoulda known... there's always more to the story than meets the Lewk.

    http://www.physorg.com/news169222186.html

    Bennett and Lutz compared immigrant blacks to native-born blacks and whites to see what background characteristics the groups have in common. The sociologists found that both groups of blacks were disadvantaged relative to whites in socioeconomic background. Yet, the educational experiences of immigrant blacks are more closely aligned with those of whites than native blacks. Immigrant black and white children are more likely than native black children to come from two-parent households and to attend private schools, two factors that have been shown to have a positive impact on attending an elite college. Findings reveal that if immigrant blacks and whites were able to bring the same social and economic resources to the college-going process, immigrant blacks would be 3.9 times more likely than whites to attend four-year colleges, and 17.0 times more likely than whites to attend selective colleges. Similarly, if native-born blacks and whites had similar social and economic resources, native-born blacks would be 2.9 times more likely than whites to attend four-year colleges, and 3.7 times more likely than whites to attend selective colleges. In contrast to concerns that immigrant blacks may be out-performing native-born blacks due to cultural differences with respect to college attendance, the authors found no significant differences in the chances of enrolling in college among immigrant and native-born blacks from similar socioeconomic backgrounds.
    http://www.good.is/post/ivy-league-f...eal-diversity/

    None of this would matter if black Americans and their immigrant counterparts were gunning for the Ivies from a level playing field. But they’re not. Data shows that African immigrants, Nigerians in particular, are far wealthier and more highly educated than many Americans of any race. In 2000, when the median household income for African Americans was about $30,000, the median income for Nigerian immigrant families was more than $45,000 (PDF).

    [...]

    It’s easy to chalk these numbers up to the myth that immigrants work harder than native blacks, but studies say that’s wrong. According to the aforementioned sociological research from 2009, immigrant students don’t value education more than native blacks or perform significantly better academically. Rather, they have the financial resources required to get a leg-up into the highest echelons of academia.

    “When we compare immigrant blacks to African Americans from similar family socioeconomic backgrounds, we find no significant differences between them in their chances of attending college,” says Pamela Bennett, one of the study’s authors and an assistant professor at Johns Hopkins. “Our findings indicate that [African immigrants] have greater resources, in the form of family structure and private school attendance, that are universally helpful in providing opportunities to go to college.” (“Family structure” means that African immigrants are less likely to live in single-parent households than native blacks.)
    The discussion in the original paper seems to have been pretty nuanced, in contrast to... well
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Are black immigrants more or less likely to be one leg up from many native blacks in the ways GGT described?
    Average African immigrants tend to have similar education levels of "native" whites. Since the amount of non-"native" Africans in the US is fairly small, the Africans who do immigrate to the US tend to do so through various work and educational visas, which means they're not really representative of the African population.

    Before you dismiss the role of culture, however, you should look at the education levels of several Caribbean groups to New York. I can't recall the exact study, but the gist of it was that the first generation immigrants had really low education levels, their children (the first generation brought up in the US), who still identified with their Caribbean culture, had substantially higher education levels (presumably due to the better opportunities present in the US). The third generation, however, which tended to adopt the inner-city black culture, ended up far less educated than the previous one.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    BS. Our immigration system favors family reunification, with a majority of our legal immigrants coming from Mexico and Guatemala.
    But they're not comparing black Mexican or Guatemalan immigrants to native born black Mexican-Guatemalan Americans.

    And I suppose the only way to filter out race vs culture for Caribbean immigrants, would be to include comparisons between white and black Caribbean immigrants. Not just the socio-economic group they identify with once they're in the US.

  23. #23
    A vast majority of the Caribbean immigrants in New York are dark-skinned. The lighter-skinned ones tend to dominate the political and economic landscape back in the Caribbean; why bother leaving?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #24
    A vast majority of US immigrants could be "dark-skinned", but that doesn't mean they're black, let alone have an African heritage. Plenty who trace their roots from Jamaica, Bahamas, Mexico (or even Puerto Rico) may consider themselves black, but not African-Americans. Our own New Orleans has creole blacks who consider themselves French-American. "Black" is a race, but all those hyphenated add-ons are national and cultural identifications.

    The study Lewk linked suggests the biggest predictor for "educational success" is family socio-economic status, a two-parent household, and attending private schools. He may think that removes racial variables, but he'd be ignoring that America still has huge racial inequalities in employment and education. And neither bodes well for any poor or working poor single parent (usually the mother) who didn't attend a private school.

  25. #25
    The incessant claims or racism everywhere, the cult of victimization and the acceptance of often complete dependence on government has created a culture that distrusts achievement and work.
    I don't find this statement remotely true at all.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebanese Dragon View Post
    I don't find this statement remotely true at all.
    What are you, some kind of lib'rul?

    Oh, Lewk believes in the cult of victimization, alright. But he believes that it comes from the hand of teh evil gummint, in the form of welfare and social safety nets, maybe even public schools. (That school part's never been quite clear in his posts.) To which they become complete dependents, slackers and lazy leeches, with no work ethic or desire to excel and achieve.

    Lewk, it's unfortunate you post these things from your *cough* black-and-white world view. Figuring out how/why entrenched poverty, cyclical or generational poverty, Learned Helplessness, Education, cultural norms, racism (etc) work as symbiotic or opposing forces...with public policy....would be a great discussion.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Average African immigrants tend to have similar education levels of "native" whites. Since the amount of non-"native" Africans in the US is fairly small, the Africans who do immigrate to the US tend to do so through various work and educational visas, which means they're not really representative of the African population.

    Before you dismiss the role of culture, however, you should look at the education levels of several Caribbean groups to New York. I can't recall the exact study, but the gist of it was that the first generation immigrants had really low education levels, their children (the first generation brought up in the US), who still identified with their Caribbean culture, had substantially higher education levels (presumably due to the better opportunities present in the US). The third generation, however, which tended to adopt the inner-city black culture, ended up far less educated than the previous one.
    So you would agree, then, that throwing money at the problem isn't a fruitful exercise?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    So you would agree, then, that throwing money at the problem isn't a fruitful exercise?
    I thought that's meant to be Lewk's line?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I thought that's meant to be Lewk's line?
    Skies forbid you speak your own mind!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I shoulda known... there's always more to the story than meets the Lewk.

    http://www.physorg.com/news169222186.html



    http://www.good.is/post/ivy-league-f...eal-diversity/



    The discussion in the original paper seems to have been pretty nuanced, in contrast to... well
    Aimless considering my position that merit and work ethic decide your economic fate and that parents have an influence on their kids... this isn't surprising that people who come from households with better parents have better outcomes.

    “When we compare immigrant blacks to African Americans from similar family socioeconomic backgrounds, we find no significant differences between them in their chances of attending college,” says Pamela Bennett, one of the study’s authors and an assistant professor at Johns Hopkins. “Our findings indicate that [African immigrants] have greater resources, in the form of family structure and private school attendance, that are universally helpful in providing opportunities to go to college.” (“Family structure” means that African immigrants are less likely to live in single-parent households than native blacks.)
    As Ann Coulter says in her books the #1 likely predictor after controlling for race, education, income is if the child comes from a two parent household or a one parent household. Now weather or not you have a single parent household is going to be dependent on the... (wait for it) CULTURE of the area.

    http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data...s.aspx?ind=107

    United States Scale
    Non-Hispanic White 24%
    Black or African American 67%
    American Indian 53%
    Asian and Pacific Islander 16%
    Hispanic or Latino 40%
    Total 34%

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