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			<title>Occupy Chicago and... NATO?</title>
			<link>http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2661&amp;goto=newpost</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2012 08:17:54 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[So something you probably don't know is that wiggin's sister is an active part of the Occupy Chicago movement.  I can't say I really agree with her...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>So something you probably don't know is that wiggin's sister is an active part of the Occupy Chicago movement.  I can't say I really agree with her (okay, that's a vast understatement), but I respect her right to protest, and if it makes her happy, then more power to her.<br />
<br />
What has puzzled me lately, though, is the recent hullabaloo about the NATO summit taking place in Chicago over the next couple days.  Previously, the G8 summit was also scheduled for Chicago, before it was moved to Camp David.  I had definitely expected that the Occupy chaps would be involved with G8 protest - things like unreasonable fear of globalization and conspiracy theories about the New World Order fit in quite well with their anti-corporatist rhetoric.  It's not new to have leftist types shutting down cities during various meetings of global economic or financial bodies, so I wasn't surprised to hear my sister talk about preparations for it.<br />
<br />
What was weird was that after the G8 was moved, the Occupy Chicago chaps decided they would still mobilize various 'actions' against the NATO summit as well.  I asked my sister about this (okay, I actually pressed her quite a bit) to understand the connection between the rhetoric of Occupy Chicago/OWS and anti-NATO protests, and she was pretty much unable to give me a coherent answer.  She mumbled a bit about 'solidarity' with antiwar protesters and a bit more about the military industrial complex, but she wasn't particularly clear on what she actually found wrong with NATO as an organization.  Now, you might think that she's just not particularly well-versed in Occupy Chicago rhetoric on NATO, but apparently she's not a press liaison for the NATO protests, so apparently the other protesters think she has above-average coherence on the issue.<br />
<br />
I did some quick online sleuthing and couldn't find any actual justification for it other than borrowed slogans from antiwar groups that have nothing to do with Occupy Chicago's raison d'etre.  I did find this little gem over at HuffPost:<br />
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			Webber, who helped start the group 99% Solidarity, an offshoot of the Occupy movement, said he opposed NATO because it fights wars and because governments fund those wars with money they should spend elsewhere.<br />
<br />
&quot;There's definitely a connection between the two and I think they're very important,&quot; Webber said. &quot;My hope is 30 years from now, we won't have a need for marches like this.&quot;
			
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</div><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/18/occupy-chicago-nato_n_1528901.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1528901.html</a> <br />
<br />
...which has plenty of logical flaws, but is also pretty thin justification for throwing in with them.  Is this just a case of 'well, this is a leftist cause, and we're mostly leftists, so let's jump on the bandwagon'?  If it is, it seems to be a very poor choice.  The G8/IMF/World Bank/etc. all attract lots of criticism in the Western world from more than just fringe crazies; protesting them (and banks/etc., which no one likes very much right now) is a good way to have a popular cause (just like the Tea Party protesting taxes can't really go wrong).  Yet there is not much popular anger in the US against NATO, and I don't see where they're going with this as a movement.<br />
<br />
Am I missing something?  Is there some deep-seated hatred of NATO simmering in the American public of which I am unaware?  Is there a rationale connected the Occupy movement to NATO that I'm simply missing?<br />
<br />
<br />
I don't much like the Occupy movement - I think they're mostly shrill and spend most of their time complaining without suggesting even remotely workable solutions.  But I <i>do</i> recognize that the movement is representing a great deal of frustration on the part of a significant part of the population - hardly the 99%, of course, but a decent chunk of people who feel that they have been treated unfairly.  Yet when stuff like this happens I wonder if it's not just morphing into a fringe leftist group without any real sense of what most people are feeling.  Have they been drinking the kool-aid too much?  Are they too caught up in the protesting 'culture' to have a sense of perspective?<br />
<br />
If so, that's a shame.  I think that citizen protest groups - right, left, or neither - have a valuable place in allowing people to make politicians pay attention to issues they might not have otherwise.  Yet if they marginalize themselves, their main message will be ignored, and they will only be able to blame their own stupidity.  Thoughts?</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.theworldforgotten.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15"><![CDATA[Debate & Discussion]]></category>
			<dc:creator>wiggin</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2661</guid>
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			<title>Freedom and Risk</title>
			<link>http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2660&amp;goto=newpost</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2012 21:16:52 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>http://townhall.com/columnists/johnstossel/2012/05/09/creating_a_riskfree_world 
 
A child leaving home alone for the first time takes a risk. So...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div><a href="http://townhall.com/columnists/johnstossel/2012/05/09/creating_a_riskfree_world" target="_blank">http://townhall.com/columnists/johns...riskfree_world</a><br />
<br />
A child leaving home alone for the first time takes a risk. So does the entrepreneur who opens a new business. I no more want government to prevent us from doing these things than I want it to keep us in padded cells.<br />
Everyone has a different tolerance for risk. One person takes out a second mortgage to start a business. Another thinks that sounds nerve-racking, if not insane. Neither person is wrong. Government cannot know each person's preferences, or odds of success.<br />
<br />
Even if it did, what right does it have to tell them what to do?<br />
<br />
When government gets in the business of deciding which risks are acceptable and which aren't, nasty things happen.<br />
<br />
This includes government's attempt to improve life by regulating gambling and the use of medicine, banning recreational drugs and mandating safety devices in cars.<br />
<br />
In what sense are we free if we can't decide such things for ourselves?<br />
<br />
Through the Food and Drug Administration, the government claims to protect us. But some people suffer because of that protection: Some die waiting for drugs to be approved.<br />
<br />
Don't we own our own bodies? Why, in a supposedly free country, do Americans, even when dying, meekly stand aside and let the state limit our choices?<br />
<br />
The Drug Enforcement Administration jails pain-management doctors who prescribe quantities of painkillers that the DEA considers &quot;inappropriate.&quot; It's true that some people harm themselves with Vicodin and OxyContin, but it's hard for doctors to separate &quot;recreational&quot; users from people really in pain. Some cancer patients need large amounts of painkillers.<br />
<br />
After the DEA jailed doctors, some pain specialists began to underprescribe. The website of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons warns doctors: Don't go into pain management. &quot;Drug agents now set medical standards. ... There could be years of harassment and legal fees.&quot; Today, even old people in nursing homes sometimes don't get pain relief they need.<br />
<br />
Even the best safety regulations have unexpected costs. Seat belts save 15,000 lives a year, but it's possible that they kill more people than they save.<br />
<br />
University of Chicago economist Sam Peltzman argues that increased safety features on cars have the ironic effect of encouraging people to drive more recklessly. It's called the Peltzman Effect -- a variation on what insurance experts call &quot;moral hazard.&quot; Studies show that people drive faster when they are snugly enclosed in seat belts.<br />
<br />
Also, while passengers were less likely to die, there were more accidents and more pedestrians were hit.<br />
<br />
Perhaps the best safety device would be a spike mounted on the steering wheel -- pointed right at the driver's chest.<br />
<br />
There's another reason to think seat belt laws have been counterproductive. Before government made seat belts mandatory, several automakers offered them as options. Volvo ran ads touting seat belts, laminated glass, padded dashboards, etc., as the sort of things that responsible parents should want. I concede that government action expanded seat belt use faster than would have otherwise happened, but by interfering with the market, government also stifled innovation. That kills people.<br />
<br />
Here's my reasoning: The first government mandate created a standard for seat belts. That relieved auto companies of the need to compete on seat belt safety and comfort. Drivers and passengers haven't benefitted from improvements competitive carmakers might have made.<br />
<br />
If every auto company were trying to invent a better belt, today, instead of one seat belt, I bet there'd be six, and all would be better and more comfortable than today's standard. Because they would be more comfortable, more passengers would wear them. Over time, the free market in seat belts would save more lives.<br />
<br />
We don't know what good things we might have if the heavy foot of government didn't step in to limit our options.<br />
<br />
In a free country, it should be up to adult individuals to make their own choices about risk. Patrick Henry didn't say, &quot;Give me safety, or give me death.&quot; Liberty is what America is supposed to be about.<br />
<br />
Let's start treating people as though their bodies belong to them, not to a controlling and &quot;protective&quot; government.<br />
<br />
***************<br />
<br />
More and more people seem to be OK with the government filling a paternalistic role.  Not just in prescription drugs and seat-belts but look at credit cards, mortgages and other financial services.  The assumption is not longer than people can take care of themselves instead we are assumed to be delicate children who can not possibly survive without THOUSANDS of regulations that govern every single part of life.  <br />
<br />
The costs of course are difficult to determine.  Like Stossel points out things are not cut and dry, government stifles innovation... meaning that we don't even KNOW what the true cost of the regulation is.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.theworldforgotten.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15"><![CDATA[Debate & Discussion]]></category>
			<dc:creator>Lewkowski</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2660</guid>
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			<title>US Justice dept: The public has constitutional right to film Cops Gone wild</title>
			<link>http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2659&amp;goto=newpost</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2012 13:37:05 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>---Quote--- 
As police departments around the country are increasingly caught up  in tussles with members of the public who record their activities,...</description>
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			As police departments around the country are increasingly caught up  in tussles with members of the public who record their activities, the  U.S. Justice Department has come out with a strong statement supporting  the First Amendment right of individuals to record police officers in  the public discharge of their duties.<br />
<br />
<br />
 In a <a href="http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2012/05/united_states_letter_re_photography_5_14_2012_0.pdf" target="_blank">surprising letter</a>  (PDF) sent on Monday to attorneys for the Baltimore Police Department,  the Justice Department also strongly asserted that officers who seize  and destroy such recordings without a warrant or without due process are  in strict violation of the individual’s Fourth and Fourteenth Amendment  rights.<br />
<br />
<br />
 The letter was sent to the police department as it prepares for  meetings to discuss a settlement over a civil lawsuit brought by a  citizen who sued the department after his camera was seized by police.<br />
 In the lawsuit, Christopher Sharp alleged that in May 2010, Baltimore  City police officers seized, searched, and deleted the contents of his  mobile phone after he used it to record them as they were arresting a  friend of his.<br />
<br />
<br />
 Last year, the Baltimore Police Department published a General Order  to officers explaining that members of the public have a right to record  their activity in public, but the Justice Department said in its  11-page letter this week that the order didn’t go far enough and pointed  out several areas where it should clarify and assert more strongly the  rights that individuals possess.<br />
<br />
<br />
 The right to record police officers in the public discharge of their  duties was essential to help &quot;engender public confidence in our police  departments, promote public access to information necessary to hold our  governmental officers accountable, and ensure public and officer  safety,&quot; wrote Jonathan Smith, head of the Justice Department’s Special  Litigation Section.<br />
<br />
<br />
 Smith cited the 1991 videotaped assault of Rodney King while he was  being beaten by law enforcement officers as an incident that  &quot;exemplifies this principle&quot; of public oversight.<br />
<br />
<br />
 &quot;A private individual awakened by sirens recorded police officers  assaulting King from the balcony of his apartment,&quot; Smith wrote. &quot;This  videotape provided key evidence of officer misconduct and led to  widespread reform.&quot;<br />
<br />
<br />
 He noted that the issue was particularly important in Baltimore,  &quot;given the numerous publicized reports over the past several years  alleging that BPD officers violated individuals’ First Amendment  rights.&quot;<br />
<br />
<br />
 The Justice Department’s interference in the local civil case was  surprising yet significant in that it put not only Baltimore but also  every other city police department around the country on notice that  interference in such recordings was unconstitutional. It was sent to  Baltimore days after several media and civil rights organizations sent  U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder a letter insisting that the Justice  Department <a href="http://www.pixiq.com/article/journalism-organizations-urge-attorney-general" target="_blank">take action against agencies that arrest</a> people who record officers.<br />
 &quot;Since the Occupy Wall Street movement began, police have arrested  dozens of journalists and activists simply for attempting to document  political protests in public spaces,&quot; the letter to Holder stated. &quot;A  new type of activism is taking hold around the world and here in the  U.S.: People with smartphones, cameras and Internet connections have  been empowered with the means to report on public events.&quot;<br />
<br />
<br />
 While individual cases didn’t necessarily fall under the Justice  Department’s jurisdiction, the letter acknowledged, the suppression of  speech was a national problem that had to be addressed at the federal  level.<br />
<br />
<br />
 &quot;Freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and freedom of access to  information are vital whether you’re a credentialed journalist, a  protester, or just a bystander with a camera,&quot; the organizations  asserted.<br />
<br />
<br />
 In the document he sent to Baltimore, Smith said that, except under  limited circumstances where a person recording police activity engaged  in actions that violated the law, jeopardized the safety of a police  officer, a suspect, or others, or incited others to violate the law,  police officers should not interfere with a recording and should never  seize recording devices without a warrant. They should also be advised  &quot;not to threaten, intimidate, or otherwise discourage an individual from  recording police officer enforcement activities or intentionally block  or obstruct cameras or recording devices.&quot;<br />
<br />
<br />
 Policies should prohibit officers from destroying recording devices  or cameras and deleting recordings or photographs under any  circumstances, Smith wrote.<br />
			
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</div>Fuck yeah?</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.theworldforgotten.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15"><![CDATA[Debate & Discussion]]></category>
			<dc:creator>Nessus</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2659</guid>
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			<title>Buying and selling publicly offered stocks</title>
			<link>http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2658&amp;goto=newpost</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 23:03:30 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>A few members here seem to be dabbling in the stock market and I have some questions concerning the system governing the buying and selling of...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>A few members here seem to be dabbling in the stock market and I have some questions concerning the system governing the buying and selling of publicly offered stocks. I'm going to start off with an initial question concerning my right to sell something I own. If trading of a stock is halted, does that mean I cannot sell the stock I own to another private party I find willing to pay the price I ask (contractual obligation bypassing the facilitization of Stock Exchanges)? Or is the halt strictly limited to transactions facilitated through whatever specific Stock Exchange decided to halt trading? Think Zynga.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.theworldforgotten.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15"><![CDATA[Debate & Discussion]]></category>
			<dc:creator>Being</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2658</guid>
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			<title>Eurogeddon redux: What will happen to the European Project?</title>
			<link>http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2657&amp;goto=newpost</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 11:48:17 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>---Quote--- 
Apocalypse Fairly Soon 
 
Suddenly, it has become easy to see how the euro — that grand, flawed  experiment in monetary union without...</description>
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			<font size="6">Apocalypse Fairly Soon</font><br />
<br />
Suddenly, it has become easy to see how the euro — that grand, flawed  experiment in monetary union without political union — could come apart  at the seams. We’re not talking about a distant prospect, either. Things  could fall apart with stunning speed, in a matter of months, not years.  And the costs — both economic and, arguably even more important,  political — could be huge.<br />
<br />
 This doesn’t have to happen; the euro (or at least most of it) could  still be saved. But this will require that European leaders, especially  in Germany and at the European Central Bank, start acting very  differently from the way they’ve acted these past few years. They need  to stop moralizing and deal with reality; they need to stop temporizing  and, for once, get ahead of the curve.        <br />
 I wish I could say that I was optimistic.        <br />
<br />
<br />
 The story so far: When the euro came into existence, there was a great  wave of optimism in Europe — and that, it turned out, was the worst  thing that could have happened. Money poured into Spain and other  nations, which were now seen as safe investments; this flood of capital  fueled huge housing bubbles and huge trade deficits. Then, with the  financial crisis of 2008, the flood dried up, causing severe slumps in  the very nations that had boomed before.        <br />
<br />
<br />
 At that point, Europe’s lack of political union became a severe  liability. Florida and Spain both had housing bubbles, but when  Florida’s bubble burst, retirees could still count on getting their  Social Security and Medicare checks from Washington. Spain receives no  comparable support. So the burst bubble turned into a fiscal crisis,  too.        <br />
<br />
<br />
 Europe’s answer has been austerity: savage spending cuts in an attempt  to reassure bond markets. Yet as any sensible economist could have told  you (and we did, we did), these cuts deepened the depression in Europe’s  troubled economies, which both further undermined investor confidence  and led to growing political instability.        <br />
<br />
<br />
 And now comes the moment of truth.        <br />
<br />
<br />
 Greece is, for the moment, the focal point. Voters who are  understandably angry at policies that have produced 22 percent  unemployment — more than 50 percent among the young — turned on the  parties enforcing those policies. And because the entire Greek political  establishment was, in effect, bullied into endorsing a doomed economic  orthodoxy, the result of voter revulsion has been rising power for  extremists. Even if the polls are wrong and the governing coalition  somehow ekes out a majority in the next round of voting, this game is  basically up: Greece won’t, can’t pursue the policies that Germany and  the European Central Bank are demanding.        <br />
<br />
<br />
 So now what? Right now, Greece is experiencing what’s being called a  “bank jog” — a somewhat slow-motion bank run, as more and more  depositors pull out their cash in anticipation of a possible Greek exit  from the euro. Europe’s central bank is, in effect, financing this bank  run by lending Greece the necessary euros; if and (probably) when the  central bank decides it can lend no more, Greece will be forced to  abandon the euro and issue its own currency again.        <br />
<br />
<br />
 This demonstration that the euro is, in fact, reversible would lead, in  turn, to runs on Spanish and Italian banks. Once again the European  Central Bank would have to choose whether to provide open-ended  financing; if it were to say no, the euro as a whole would blow up.         <br />
 Yet financing isn’t enough. Italy and, in particular, Spain must be  offered hope — an economic environment in which they have some  reasonable prospect of emerging from austerity and depression.  Realistically, the only way to provide such an environment would be for  the central bank to drop its obsession with price stability, to accept  and indeed encourage several years of 3 percent or 4 percent inflation  in Europe (and more than that in Germany).        <br />
<br />
<br />
 Both the central bankers and the Germans hate this idea, but it’s the  only plausible way the euro might be saved. For the past two-and-a-half  years, European leaders have responded to crisis with half-measures that  buy time, yet they have made no use of that time. Now time has run out.         <br />
<br />
<br />
 So will Europe finally rise to the occasion? Let’s hope so — and not  just because a euro breakup would have negative ripple effects  throughout the world. For the biggest costs of European policy failure  would probably be political.<br />
        <br />
<br />
 Think of it this way: Failure of the euro would amount to a huge defeat  for the broader European project, the attempt to bring peace, prosperity  and democracy to a continent with a terrible history. It would also  have much the same effect that the failure of austerity is having in  Greece, discrediting the political mainstream and empowering extremists.         <br />
<br />
<br />
 All of us, then, have a big stake in European success — yet it’s up to  the Europeans themselves to deliver that success. The whole world is  waiting to see whether they’re up to the task.        <br />
			
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	</div>
</div>From <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/18/opinion/krugman-apocalypse-fairly-soon.html?_r=1&amp;partner=rssnyt&amp;emc=rss" target="_blank">Paul's pen.</a><br />
<br />
It has all but happened; the Euro is a failed project. At this point I don't even really care whose <i>fault</i> it is, there's always plenty of blame to throw around. What matters is what follows.<br />
<br />
If Europe re-Balkanizes, the same rationale will apply as it did a hundred years ago. Right now, Berlin is the master of Europe but this time the situation was created peacefully, once the economic and then the political union falls apart at the seams, Berlin will have to reach some conclusions. The final down-fall of democracy in Europe seems inevitable, as various parties scramble to appease the markets and the suffering populations down south. <br />
<br />
What we seem to be lacking are powerful and focused extremist movements. There is a vacuum of power and influence (the Greek neo-Nazis notwithstanding), and we all know nature abhors vacuums. I suppose my question is, how fast can the situation deteriorate? The cultural waste-land created by consumerism simply is not interested in preserving democracy; day in and day out observers like Loki and Wraith declare democracy a lost cause. It is possible they are right; the implicit agreement demanded by power by the people for the people is a politically aware and interested people. We seem to lack that. Can democracy be preserved if people simply do not <i>want</i> it? Should it be preserved, if that is the case? No one has shown that democracy is anywhere near the best way of organizing societies, it just seems pretty good at keeping the atrocities at bay... So is it about time we had some good old-fashioned European genocide? It's been a couple of decades, after all!<br />
<br />
I am deeply troubled. I think horrible things are now on the verge of becoming possible. Do we really want to be <i>that</i> generation?</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.theworldforgotten.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15"><![CDATA[Debate & Discussion]]></category>
			<dc:creator>Nessus</dc:creator>
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			<title><![CDATA["White" births now a minority in the USA]]></title>
			<link>http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2656&amp;goto=newpost</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 13:12:13 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>Non-Hispanic White births are now a minority of all births in the USA (though still a plurality): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18100457...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>Non-Hispanic White births are now a minority of all births in the USA (though still a plurality): <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18100457" target="_blank">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18100457</a><br />
<br />
Other then being an interesting fact, does it matter?</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.theworldforgotten.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15"><![CDATA[Debate & Discussion]]></category>
			<dc:creator>RandBlade</dc:creator>
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			<title>Gunvor and the Urals oil price</title>
			<link>http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2655&amp;goto=newpost</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 06:36:11 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[I'm catching up on an Economist from a couple weeks ago and I ran across a very unusual - and quite intriguing - article on Gunvor, a major Swiss oil...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>I'm catching up on an Economist from a couple weeks ago and I ran across a <i>very</i> unusual - and quite intriguing - article on Gunvor, a major Swiss oil trader with significant ties to Russian politicians and oil producers.  What was unusual was that the Economist rarely publishes articles full of such innuendo, they tend not to do this much independent research for an 'expose', and the article was scrupulously clear about their methodology and what of their theory was speculation.  What made it intriguing was that they made a reasonable case that Gunvor was very cleverly manipulating the price of Urals oil in order to bilk the Russian taxpayer of significant amounts of money.<br />
<br />
I'd strongly recommend you read the article (below), but for a very quick summary: the Economist contends that based on data taken from the Platts published price for Urals oil they recognized a very odd correlation between intense bursts of Gunvor <i>selling</i> activity and drops in the published price of Urals oil.  The technical analysis is a bit more complex - and I myself have some questions about their specific methodology - but it seems to indicate that Gunvor was intentionally depressing the Platts price of Urals oil below its real value.  The Economist then speculates that this is done in spurts in order to temporarily drive down the published price, which is used as an index for various oil contracts when Gunvor is buying from Russian producers.  Essentially, they're using a small part of their selling trades to influence the spot price on the market which allows them a discount when locking in contracts for Russian oil.<br />
<br />
The article is very speculative, but if their hypothesis is correct, the scheme is both mind-blowingly clever and incredibly impressive that such manipulation of a widely published price index has gone on unnoticed for so long.  I question some of their analysis - and notably am curious whey their data stops in 2009 - but they've made a decent case that small group of investors (mostly Russian plutocrats, I believe) has bilked the Russian taxpayer out of, conservatively, hundreds of millions of dollars.  It's a very clever use of their clout - they are one of the main traders in a very thinly traded market, and while the Platts index seems to be well-designed, they appear to have found a way to exploit it to their advantage.<br />
<br />
Now, two caveats: Platts <a href="http://www.economist.com/node/21554496" target="_blank">angrily rejected</a> the claims that their price research could be manipulated, and since their reputation relies on it, I suspect they've at least done due diligence on whether Gunvor is involved (though whether they'd admit it is another story entirely).  Also, the Economist has already tangled with Gunvor before over a libel lawsuit that they settled out of court.  I would find it unlikely and pretty petty, but it's possible this is just payback - certainly they appeared to carefully cover their asses wrt libel in how they wrote the article.  Even so, it's a compelling - and quite surprising - story.<br />
<br />
What do you guys think?  Is it credible?  I've seen arguments about much smaller cases of manipulation of similar published indices - for example, there have been some complaints about LIBOR in recent years - but nothing this egregious.<br />
<br />
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				Originally Posted by <strong>Economist</strong>
				
			</div>
			<div class="message">Riddles, mysteries and enigmas<br />
Amid international concern about the integrity of the global oil markets, we report on the Kremlin’s favourite oil trader<br />
<br />
FEW people outside Russia have ever heard of Gunvor—and Gunvor would probably prefer it that way. It is the world’s fourth-biggest oil trader, and at its peak handled roughly a third of Russia’s seaborne exports of crude oil. We suspect that Gunvor has been driving down the price of Russian oil. An investigation by The Economist into Gunvor’s trading in Urals crude, a benchmark blend in north-west Europe, suggests that such a strategy could have helped the firm buy oil in Russia cheaply and, in theory, earn inflated profits when it sold the same oil on the international market at full price.<br />
<br />
Spot markets for oil are virtually unregulated so the law allows Gunvor considerable freedom of manoeuvre. Yet any fall in Russia’s revenues could have harmed the country’s citizens, who benefit from oil taxes. Moreover, the spot markets have become the subject of official concern. In March, after a request from the leaders of the G20 (including Russia), the International Organisation of Securities Commissions (IOSCO), a forum for regulating financial markets, issued an appeal for ideas on reforming oil-price reporting. One of its aims is to “ensure the integrity of [the oil markets’] price assessment”. If our suspicions are well-founded, Gunvor’s Urals trade would show how vulnerable oil markets are to distortion.<br />
<br />
Nobody but Gunvor itself knows for sure whether it set out to move the Urals price, as we suspect. The firm is adamant that it has done nothing wrong.<br />
<br />
So we have no proven case. But we do have a set of suspicious circumstances. Under Vladimir Putin, who was elected Russia’s president in March and will be sworn in next week, Gunvor has grown from a small, virtually unknown company into the most important trader of Russian oil (see article). Before Russia’s presidential election, Gunvor attracted criticism from opposition protesters for making money out of the country’s oil and for being based in Switzerland. Given Gunvor’s political sensitivity and that Russia needs to get the best price for its oil, Mr Putin should look into the Urals market.<br />
<br />
Our investigation has three parts. The first is based on public data, which show that over a period of years Gunvor’s trading was repeatedly associated with falls in the market price for Urals crude over a few days or weeks. The second is our analysis, which founds our suspicion that Gunvor intended to drive the price down temporarily in this way. And the third is the related question of what such a strategy might have accomplished.<br />
<br />
The “Urals blend” includes much of the 5m barrels a day or so of crude oil that Russia exports. The sellers are oil producers, including Rosneft, Surgutneftegaz and Gazprom Neft. The buyers are European refiners such as Hellenic and INA and the refining arms of oil companies such as Royal Dutch Shell and Total. In among the buyers and sellers are the trading companies, such as Glencore, Vitol—and Gunvor.<br />
<br />
The way of the window<br />
<br />
Most of the Urals spot trading takes place in private and is not reported. The published price for Urals oil is set by Platts, part of McGraw-Hill, a media company. Platts writes about the market in its daily Crude Oil Marketwire, a representative summary containing the day’s most noteworthy public bids, offers and trades.<br />
<br />
Platts sets its daily price using the bids, offers and transactions that are published on its systems. Its reporters can consider trades at any time in the day, but what counts is the last half-hour of trading, which ends at 4.30pm sharp London time, when the price is established. Platts invites parties to disclose open bids and cargoes for sale in the lead up to a 3.45pm cut-off, after which it accepts no new bids or offers. Starting at 4pm, it watches the dealing in the half-hour “window”. It uses its knowledge of the market plus the prices of these trades, bids and offers to establish the published price for the day.<br />
<br />
This system, known as the “Market-on-Close” (MOC) methodology, has many advantages. Instead of relying only on the subjective impressions of reporters telephoning around for news from their contacts, it also uses a formal mechanism to help establish a price at the same time each day. It brings together buyers and sellers who want a part in forming the published price. It avoids the drawbacks of average prices, set over the whole trading day, which tend to be too high in a falling market and too low in a rising one.<br />
<br />
Platts is alive to the danger of companies playing games. If its reporters think trading is manipulative or unrepresentative, they have the power to exclude any bid, offer or deal from their reckoning of the published price. As far as Platts is concerned, there has been nothing in the Urals trading to suggest that Gunvor or any other company has systematically been misleading the market. “It is our view”, Platts said in a statement, “that no single company has the ability to determine market prices on its own within Platts MOC assessment process.” Platts believes that its safeguards and the normal market dynamic between willing buyers and sellers create “a natural check and balance” against transactions that distort the price.<br />
<br />
But any system can be played to advantage. Urals is a thin market in which the typical day’s Crude Oil Marketwire features only one cargo on offer, one buyer that has expressed an interest, or one completed trade. We think that, contrary to Platts’s assurance, in such a market it is possible for a trader to direct MOC prices. On behalf of The Economist, Edward Osterwald*, a consultant who is an oil specialist with many years’ experience in central Europe and Russia, used public data from Crude Oil Marketwire to analyse Gunvor’s behaviour. The Economist’s analysis began in January 2005, shortly after Rosneft had taken control of Yuganskneftegaz, and finished at the end of May 2009, when a libel case between us and Gunvor was pending (the case was settled out of court). We also applied some statistical tests to the data.<br />
<br />
Gunvor almost only offered and sold oil in the Platts MOC window. That is because it buys oil off the spot market under tender on long-term contracts with Russian producers and thus has a lot of oil to sell. Its sales in the window were concentrated in bursts, typically lasting several days. But its activity struck The Economist as different from that of other firms, because the bursts very often coincided with a fall in the market value for Urals crude.<br />
<br />
On the face of it, that behaviour is odd, because a trader like Gunvor is normally equally interested in a high selling price and a low purchase price. And yet its trading activity commonly—if temporarily—drove down the spot-price assessment.<br />
<br />
In the four years and five months that were analysed, the Crude Oil Marketwire featured a total of 1,218 bids for cargoes, offers of cargoes and trades within the Platts assessment. Of these, 412 involved Gunvor—more than twice as many as any other trader and nearly nine times more than the average. That is in line with its status as the market’s biggest trader. Remember, though, that Platts’s MOC assessment contains any particular bid, offer or deal only because the parties want it known. Some, like Exxon Mobil, rarely confirm trades with Platts. Gunvor chose to trade in the window often and heavily.<br />
<br />
MOC execution<br />
<br />
What effect did this have? Nearly all Gunvor’s trades within the window were sales or offers to sell (see chart 1). In those four years and five months, Gunvor sold or offered oil 399 times and bid or bought oil just 13 times. In other words, Gunvor was responsible for half of all the sales and 40% of all offers in the window. By contrast, Gunvor accounted for only 3.1% of buys and 0.7% of bids.<br />
<br />
Gunvor makes its offers not in a steady stream, but in bursts. Thus in 2007 Gunvor’s reported trading activity was concentrated in 13 bursts spread over the year. “The usual effect of Gunvor’s activity on the price was to depress it,” says Mr Osterwald, who was head of oil and gas for Arthur Andersen in central and eastern Europe, the Middle East, India and Africa. “This is the opposite of what a normal commercial seller would wish to achieve.”<br />
<br />
The spot price of Urals is measured against “forward-dated Brent”, the benchmark for much of the world’s oil, based on oil from the North Sea priced for delivery on a set date in the future. Urals tends to trade at a discount to Brent, because it contains more sulphur and more heavy hydrocarbons, neither of which refiners prize. The “price” is the size of this discount.<br />
<br />
During 11 of the 13 bursts in 2007 of Gunvor’s trading in the window, as identified by the Crude Oil Marketwire, Urals fell against forward-dated Brent. In ten of the corresponding periods when Gunvor was absent or virtually absent from the price-setting mechanism, Urals recovered.<br />
<br />
In a market where the price is broadly stable over a long period of time, the size and number of day-to-day price increases should roughly match the size and number of day-to-day price falls—and that holds true for Urals. However, an analysis shows that Gunvor’s pattern of trading has a predictable effect (see chart 2). On more than 80% of the days when Gunvor was selling in bursts in the Platts window, Urals fell against Brent. On more than 75% of the days when it was not, Urals rose.<br />
<br />
Interestingly, Gunvor’s behaviour reversed in March 2009, right at the end of the four years and five months we looked at. In each of the next three bursts of heavy use of the window, over the following two months, Gunvor bought oil and the price relative to Brent rose. Mr Osterwald says this was the first time he saw Gunvor bid in the window. We do not know why its behaviour changed.<br />
<br />
We are left with the first half of a detective story. There is a set of striking trades that we suspect were part of a trading strategy—after all, Gunvor was present in the window only because it chose to be.<br />
<br />
If so, what was it trying to achieve? This leads to the second step of our account, where we leave behind the public domain. Nobody except Gunvor knows why it chose to trade as it did. During the past two years we have repeatedly asked Gunvor to explain its trading to us. However, Gunvor declined to comment for publication. Therefore, from this point onward, we depend on inference and speculation.<br />
<br />
Window shopping<br />
<br />
People close to the Urals market suggest two theories for Gunvor’s behaviour. One view—and this is put forward by Gunvor itself—is that the company was simply behaving commercially. It was, the argument goes, selling into the window to establish a fair benchmark price for the far larger quantities of oil it was selling in private. Eager to shift oil, Gunvor saw the Platts window as the place where buyers congregate. Platts and Gunvor argue that the price is determined by any number of objective factors, such as economic growth, the weather, shipping markets and so forth. To reduce everything to Gunvor’s trading, they say, is nonsense. In this view, Gunvor was not driving the market down, but following it down, selling oil when the price had started to fall, because waiting would only mean a still-worse deal.<br />
<br />
This may be so, but we remain suspicious. We have reasons for thinking that the price fall was often caused not by objective factors, such as changes in the economy, but by Gunvor itself coming into the market. We analysed Gunvor’s trading using a statistical technique called a Granger causality test, which helps to distinguish cause from effect. To see how the test works think of two sets of statistics for rainfall and the sale of umbrellas. The Granger test compares these to show which, as a rule, comes first, the rain or the umbrellas. Here, it is easy to see that shops tend to sell more umbrellas after people start to get wet—or, to put it another way, that rainfall causes the sale of umbrellas.<br />
<br />
Our statistical analysis shows that, in this technical sense, Gunvor caused the Urals price to fall, because it generally started its burst of selling and offering cargoes before the market turned down. Rarely did a falling market lead Gunvor to start selling. It was as if Gunvor’s sales and offers were a signal for Urals to fall against Brent.<br />
<br />
Perhaps Gunvor was using objective factors to anticipate a bearish market—like someone who has seen the weather forecast and buys an umbrella while the sun is still shining. But Gunvor tended to sell and offer oil without other companies piling in. Either the rest of the market was in fact not bearish or Gunvor was undercutting the price so much that others did not think they would make money selling through the window. Whichever, Gunvor was more eager to sell than other companies.<br />
<br />
Gunvor’s analysts might have had their own private forecasters who could spot objective factors that other traders did not. You might then expect Gunvor to have sold in the window when others did not. If so, Gunvor’s forecasters were not much good. Although they were right some of the time—as you would expect—the price usually started to recover when Gunvor stopped selling. Indeed, more often than not the price often recovered a fair bit: the pattern was especially pronounced early in our analysis (see charts 3a and 3b).<br />
<br />
In the first three-and-a-half years, the market was flat. And in the 12 months to May 2009 there was an overall bull market for Urals, in which the prevailing discount to Brent narrowed, from around $5 a barrel to $1 a barrel or less. If Gunvor had a private forecast it often seemed wrongly to predict a bearish market.<br />
<br />
When you analyse Gunvor’s behaviour in this way, the view that Gunvor has merely been responding to the market is not wholly convincing. If Gunvor’s intention was to benchmark the market, the result was mostly to send prices lower. If it came into the window to find better bargains, it tended to get a worse price. If it thought it saw objective factors for thinking that a bear market was on its way, it was alone and often mistaken.<br />
<br />
As a rule, traders should not be predictable—otherwise counterparties can foresee what they are about to do, and bet against them. Part of a trader’s skill is getting the best price. But its approach led Gunvor to sell oil predictably and too cheaply—and hence to leave some profits on the table. You might think that Gunvor was just big and that it had a lot of oil, so it was bound to drive the price down. Yet the markets already knew about Gunvor’s size. The question is why Gunvor’s appearance in the window was so often bearish.<br />
<br />
Because we were surprised by what we found, we asked Michael Sayers to review Mr Osterwald’s study. As a former head of compliance for ICE Futures Europe in London, Mr Sayers is an expert in overseeing oil markets. In his opinion: “It is inconceivable that [Gunvor] are unaware of the shadow they cast but they continue [to sell] repeatedly throughout the period covered by the study. A rational trader would recognise that their behaviour was not profit-maximising and change accordingly.” Yet Gunvor kept on selling.<br />
<br />
Assuming Gunvor was not just incompetent, that leaves the second, less benign, view: that Gunvor knew it was driving the price down and did so repeatedly. How, though, can a company that sells oil profit from a lower price? That is the third step in the analysis. The private nature of commodities trading means it can only be speculative—unless official regulators with the power to investigate take an interest.<br />
<br />
Time to look closely<br />
<br />
In theory, there are many ways to make money from the foreknowledge that the Urals spread against forward-dated Brent is about to widen temporarily. Gunvor, or related parties, could trade in futures markets—though you might then expect its counterparties eventually to realise that the market was hard to make money in. Or it might trade in other spot markets where prices are predictably connected to Urals.<br />
<br />
Gunvor does not just use the Platts Urals window to sell oil, it has also used the published price to determine how much it should pay for the Russian oil that it buys on long-term contracts. In March 2008, for instance, Reuters reported that Gunvor had signed a six-month tender with Rosneft that was based on the price of Brent minus the Platts Urals spread.<br />
<br />
Perhaps Gunvor could win an open tender for oil, by driving the Platts price down and offering a generous premium, safe in the knowledge that it would still make money when the Platts price recovered. Or Gunvor might have used a lower Platts price to cut its own purchase costs only to sell it on later at the full price, when the market had recovered. The rate of tax on Russia’s oil exports is set partly by reference to average oil prices over a month. By lowering the Urals price, Gunvor could thus also have lowered Russia’s tax take.<br />
<br />
Gunvor could point out that on any given day it is buying some cargoes of oil in Russia and selling other cargoes of oil on the open market. If so, what it gains by lowering the purchase price of one cargo, it would lose in the sale of another. But volumes matter: if a trader could sell less at the depressed price than it bought, it would make money. Moreover, the oil might not be priced on the day of purchase. If the price for an entire month’s oil deliveries could be pegged to the average Platts price for, say, the first two weeks of the month, then a trader could turn a profit.<br />
<br />
Gunvor would not have to change the price of the oil it is trading by more than a few cents to make a decent return, because it trades such huge volumes. In the four years and five months we looked at, just 25 cents of extra profit per barrel would be worth more than $200m.<br />
<br />
The Economist has two possible explanations for Gunvor’s behaviour—that Gunvor was being commercial or that it intended to drive down the market price. Gunvor denies that it has manipulated the market, and Platts rejects the idea that our statistical analysis is a substitute for its own “rigorous market observation and analysis”. But if the second explanation is true, a benchmark for crude has been distorted and the Russian taxpayers might have seen a lot of money depart to Geneva.<br />
<br />
IOSCO points out that spot markets like the one for Urals crude are a reference for all sorts of contracts. They can thus have “a high impact on oil-derivatives markets and …broader financial markets and the global economy.” We think it is now time for Mr Putin and IOSCO to investigate.<br />
<br />
*Mr Osterwald now works for Navigant, a management and litigation consulting firm.</div>
			
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	</div>
</div><a href="http://www.economist.com/node/21554185" target="_blank">http://www.economist.com/node/21554185</a></div>

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			<category domain="http://www.theworldforgotten.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15"><![CDATA[Debate & Discussion]]></category>
			<dc:creator>wiggin</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2655</guid>
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			<title>Civil Rights</title>
			<link>http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2654&amp;goto=newpost</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 22:18:07 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>1.  Define what Civil Rights means to you.  (Reasoning and examples encouraged.) 
 
2.  Should those rights be protected, expanded and/or restricted...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>1.  Define what <i>Civil Rights</i> means to you.  (Reasoning and examples encouraged.)<br />
<br />
2.  Should those rights be protected, expanded and/or restricted by law?<br />
<br />
2(a)  If yes, should those laws be decided by State or Federal legislation?<br />
2(b)  When there's a conflict, which trumps the other?<br />
2(c)  If no, explain why/why not.</div>

]]></content:encoded>
			<category domain="http://www.theworldforgotten.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15"><![CDATA[Debate & Discussion]]></category>
			<dc:creator>GGT</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2654</guid>
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			<title>Haikus, Live From Socialist Europe</title>
			<link>http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2653&amp;goto=newpost</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 17:51:46 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>The trains run quite well 
And the beer is also cheap 
No one has a job.</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>The trains run quite well<br />
And the beer is also cheap<br />
No one has a job.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.theworldforgotten.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7">General Chat</category>
			<dc:creator>Dreadnaught</dc:creator>
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			<title>Derivative trading rears its ugly head...AGAIN</title>
			<link>http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2652&amp;goto=newpost</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2012 23:23:02 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>This time from JP Morgan, and Jamie Dimon.  Once the darlings of risk-analysis and best-banking methods, now forced to eat a $2 Billion loss--- and...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>This time from JP Morgan, and Jamie Dimon.  Once the darlings of risk-analysis and best-banking methods, now forced to eat a $2 Billion loss--- and some humble pie.  No wonder they lobbied so hard to keep the loophole that allowed them to continue using those WMD (credit default swaps as hedges against loss) from their proprietary trading desk.  :rolleyes:<br />
<br />
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			<b>At JPMorgan, the Ghost of Dinner Parties Past</b><br />
<br />
By GRETCHEN MORGENSON<br />
Published: May 12, 2012<br />
<br />
<br />
WHAT goes around comes around. Sometimes it happens sooner than you’d think.<br />
<br />
That round wheel turned on JPMorgan Chase last week, which disclosed that it had suffered a $2 billion trading loss in credit derivatives. That such a hit had befallen the mightiest of banks was perhaps more stunning than the size of the loss.<br />
<br />
So where does the karma come in? The loss, and the embarrassment it held for<a href="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/d/james_dimon/index.html?inline=nyt-per" target="_blank">Jamie Dimon</a>, the bank’s imperious chief executive, came just one month after a private dinner party in Dallas at which he assailed two respected public figures who have pushed for policies that would make banks like JPMorgan smaller and less risky.<br />
<br />
One was <a href="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/v/paul_a_volcker/index.html?inline=nyt-per" target="_blank">Paul Volcker</a>, the former Federal Reserve chairman, whose remedy for risky trading by too-big-to-fail banks is known as the <a href="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/v/volcker_rule/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier" target="_blank">Volcker Rule</a>. The other was Richard W. Fisher, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas, who has also argued that large institutions should be slimmed down or limited in their risky trading practices.<br />
<br />
The party, sponsored by JPMorgan for a group of its wealthy private clients, took place at the sumptuous Mansion on Turtle Creek hotel. Mr. Dimon was on hand to thank the guests for their patronage and their trust.<br />
<br />
During the party, Mr. Dimon took questions from the crowd, according to an attendee who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of alienating the bank. One guest asked about the problem of too-big-to-fail banks and the arguments made by Mr. Volcker and Mr. Fisher.<br />
Mr. Dimon responded that he had just two words to describe them: “infantile” and “nonfactual.” He went on to lambaste Mr. Fisher further, according to the attendee. Some in the room were taken aback by the comments.<br />
<br />
Neither Mr. Fisher nor Mr. Volcker would comment on the remarks. But it appears to have been a classic performance from Mr. Dimon. In-your-face. Pugnacious. My way or the highway.<br />
<br />
Mr. Dimon declined to comment.<br />
<br />
AS overseer of the bank that emerged in the best shape from the credit crisis, Mr. Dimon has gained in stature in recent years. Hailed for his management skill, he has also become the financial industry’s point man in the war against tighter regulation of derivatives and proprietary trading. Almost since the financial crisis began, JPMorgan Chase and its legion of lobbyists have swarmed lawmakers and regulators in an effort to beat back efforts to bring transparency to derivatives and to separate risk-taking activities like proprietary trading from commercial lending units.<br />
<br />
JPMorgan has not been alone in these efforts. But it has had more clout because of its position as the grown-up in the financial industry’s playground.<br />
<br />
The industry’s efforts to curtail or derail both derivatives transparency and the Volcker Rule — which would eliminate proprietary trading at commercial banks — have had significant effects. In the case of the Volcker Rule, lobbying has made the proposed regulation vastly more complex. Mr. Volcker himself told lawmakers at a Congressional hearing last week that “I could give you stories all day about lobbyists making things more complicated.”<br />
<br />
The financial industry’s opposition has delayed the effective dates of regulatory changes. Had those delays not occurred, it’s possible that JPMorgan would not have incurred its big and jarring loss.<br />
<br />
Mr. Dimon does not agree with this assessment, judging from his comments in a conference call last Thursday. But it’s an argument made persuasively by Michael Greenberger, a law professor at the University of Maryland and an authority on derivatives. He said that if two still-pending aspects of the Dodd-Frank legislation had been in effect, JPMorgan’s trading position probably wouldn’t have been allowed to grow as large as it did. Even better, the trades might not have been made by the bank at all.<br />
<br />
“If the trades at issue were proprietary trading, as now appears to be the case, they would be banned by the Volcker Rule,” Mr. Greenberger said. “And if derivatives rules under Dodd-Frank had been in effect, these trades would almost certainly have been required to be cleared and transparently executed. The losing nature of the trades, therefore, would have been obvious to market observers and regulators for quite some time and the losses would not have piled up opaquely.”<br />
<br />
Mr. Greenberger is talking about Title VII, the section of the Dodd-Frank law dealing with over-the-counter derivatives, which were at the heart of the JPMorgan trades. It would require clearing on an exchange and transparent execution of these derivatives. Under these rules, when trades go against an institution, additional capital would have to be supplied. “A Title VII clearing facility would have priced this trade regularly, and if it kept moving away, the facility would have been asking for margin,” Mr. Greenberger said. “That kind of discipline tends to head people off from these positions.”<br />
<br />
But regulators are still hammering out the Title VII rules, and the lobbyists are hellbent on weakening them. This much is clear: If the <a href="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/g/glass_steagall_act_1933/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier" target="_blank">Glass-Steagall</a> law were still around, the problematic trading at JPMorgan would not have occurred.<br />
<br />
The hypocrisy is that our nation’s big financial institutions, protected by implied taxpayer guarantees, oppose regulation on the grounds that it would increase their costs and reduce their profit. Such rules are unfair, they contend. But in discussing fairness, they never talk about how fair it is to require taxpayers to bail out reckless institutions when their trades imperil them. That’s a question for another day.<br />
AND the fact that large institutions arguing against transparency in derivatives trading won’t acknowledge that such rules could also save them from themselves is quite the paradox.<br />
<br />
“These regulations are not just protecting the United States taxpayer,” Mr. Greenberger said. “They protect the banks themselves. The best friend of these banks would be laws that prevent them from shooting themselves in the foot. The fact is, they can’t do it themselves.”<br />
<br />
As if we had to learn that lesson again.
			
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</div>:lynchmob:</div>

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			<dc:creator>GGT</dc:creator>
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			<title>Religion in Politics and Government</title>
			<link>http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2651&amp;goto=newpost</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2012 06:51:25 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[Well, I had typed a long-ish opening paragraph, but screwed it up by clicking on AutoSave.  :p 
 
Suffice to say....I'm pretty fed up with the...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>Well, I had typed a long-ish opening paragraph, but screwed it up by clicking on AutoSave.  :p<br />
<br />
Suffice to say....I'm pretty fed up with the growing amount of religion in (US) politics.  The Republican primaries have showcased this for all to see, but I don't see too many people saying it's bothersome.  Why is that?  :bulb:  <br />
<br />
There are more polls comparing Evangelicals to Catholics, how far the Bible belt reaches, more preachers and bishops using the pulpit to influence voting, more Christian conservative issues being discussed....and somehow, in all this mess, a sectarian government has been painted as a bad thing.  :confused:<br />
<br />
What do you think?  What's the role of religion and &quot;values voting&quot; in politics/legislating?  How do you know when it's gone too far and tipped into a form of theocracy instead of democracy?</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.theworldforgotten.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15"><![CDATA[Debate & Discussion]]></category>
			<dc:creator>GGT</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2651</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Happy Mother's Day!]]></title>
			<link>http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2650&amp;goto=newpost</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2012 02:24:50 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[A bit early...but I got my gift this evening.  A new covered shaft 2-cycle gas trimmer, weed whacker/edger!  Just in time for the season's...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>A bit early...but I got my gift this evening.  A new covered shaft 2-cycle gas trimmer, weed whacker/edger!  Just in time for the season's landscaping needs, and all the damn weeds that have grown with recent rainfall.  Plus the gas and oil mixture, with its own container....and a promise that my sons will do all the edging/trimming/weed whacking and maintenance of the tool itself.  Wow, what a great gift.  Seriously.  The last time I had a fuel operated trimmer, it was a disaster.  Either I got the fuel/oil mixtures wrong, would flood the damn thing, or was constantly replacing the whip cord strips.  (Spider webs, spaghetti strings, grrr :mad: )  <br />
<br />
I'd been trying to mow an acre of lawn, around several shrubbery and flower beds, for a few years now....without the luxury of a hand-held motorized trimmer.  Just today, I was trimming stray grass tassels (that were half a foot tall) with my kitchen sheers.  :bulb:  I hadn't realized how I'd been working harder instead of smarter, until I got this gift.  :)<br />
 <br />
&lt;My sons have been tasked with helping mow, hand-weed and trim, but I prefer to think their Mother's Day gift is meant to make MY life easier, and not just theirs.  ;) &gt;</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.theworldforgotten.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7">General Chat</category>
			<dc:creator>GGT</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2650</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Ten Things Political Scientists Know That You Don't]]></title>
			<link>http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2649&amp;goto=newpost</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 22:21:41 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/hcn4/Research/Noel2010_Forum.pdf 
 
Election season will be upon us soon.  I figured this is a good time to post...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div><a href="http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/hcn4/Research/Noel2010_Forum.pdf" target="_blank">http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/h...2010_Forum.pdf</a><br />
<br />
Election season will be upon us soon.  I figured this is a good time to post an article which points out that most of the &quot;common sense&quot; on politics that you'll be hearing about in the news is uncertain at best or wrong at worst.  It's pretty much confined to research on American politics, but something is better than nothing.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.theworldforgotten.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7">General Chat</category>
			<dc:creator>Loki</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2649</guid>
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			<title>North Carolina Enacts Constitutional Ban on Gay Marriage</title>
			<link>http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2648&amp;goto=newpost</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 14:20:31 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>---Quote--- 
*North Carolina approves ban on same-sex marriage by wide margin 
 
Updated at 8:17 a.m. ET: *North Carolina voters Tuesday...</description>
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			<i><b>North Carolina approves ban on same-sex marriage by wide margin<br />
<br />
Updated at 8:17 a.m. ET: </b></i>North Carolina voters Tuesday overwhelmingly approved a proposed amendment to the state’s constitution which limits marriage to traditional one man-one woman marriages.<br />
<br />
With all of the state's 100 counties reporting, the amendment won in a landslide, with 61 percent of the vote.<br />
<br />
Supporters of traditional marriage were encouraged by the outcome in North Carolina and portrayed it as part of a trend in their favor.<br />
“Our position that marriage is between a man and a woman is gaining support, not losing support,” said Brian Brown, president of the National Organization for Marriage.<br />
<br />
“Earlier this week the Gallup poll showed that support for same-sex marriage is down. Actual vote percentages in favor of traditional marriage are rising. In 2008 in California, the Prop 8 constitutional amendment on traditional marriage passed with 52 percent of the vote. Then in 2009 in Maine, 53 percent of voters stood for traditional marriage and rejected same-sex marriage legislation. In 2010, 56 percent of Iowa voters rejected three Supreme Court judges who had imposed gay marriage in that state. And now more than 60 percent of North Carolina voters have passed a constitutional amendment defining marriage as the union of one man and one woman. There is a clear trend line, and it is moving in our direction.”<br />
<br />
On other other side, some gay and lesbian rights advocates portrayed the North Carolina outcome as a case of voters being uninformed or deceived.<br />
<br />
The gay and lesbian advocacy group Faith in America said that voters were “duped into believing their religious belief justified bringing harm to the state's gay and lesbian individuals, especially youth and their families.”<br />
<br />
The group said, “We acknowledge the right of voters to decide issues but we do not believe such an expression of bigotry should have been put to a vote by individuals who were banking on a win because of the populace's misunderstanding about sexual orientation….”<br />
<br />
Evan Wolfson, president of Freedom to Marry, called the North Carolina outcome “what happens when a preemptive ballot-measure is stampeded through before people have had enough time to take in real conversations about who gay families are and why marriage matters to them.”<br />
<br />
For his part President Obama, according to his North Carolina campaign spokesman, was “disappointed” by the result.<br />
<br />
&quot;The President has long opposed divisive and discriminatory efforts to deny rights and benefits to same sex couples.  He believes the North Carolina measure singles out and discriminates against committed gay and lesbian couples, which is why he did not support it,” said Cameron French, the North Carolina press secretary for Obama’s campaign.<br />
<br />
Obama won North Carolina in the 2008 election and his party is holding the Democratic national convention there in September.<br />
One noteworthy pattern was that some majority black counties which had strongly backed Obama in 2008 just as strongly supported the proposed amendment on Tuesday.<br />
<br />
For example, Hertford County, with a 60 percent black population, voted for Obama with 70 percent in 2008 and on Tuesday 70 percent of its voters backed the constitutional amendment defining marriage.<br />
<br />
And Halifax County, with a 53 percent black population, voted for Obama with 64 percent in 2008 and backed the amendment with 68 percent of its votes.<br />
<br />
 The amendment says: “Marriage between one man and one woman is the only domestic legal union that shall be valid or recognized in this State.” In effect, it would bar the state from giving legal recognition to civil unions between same-sex couples.<br />
<br />
Under North Carolina law, same-sex marriages are already banned.
			
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	</div>
</div><a href="http://nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/08/11604355-north-carolina-approves-ban-on-same-sex-marriage-by-wide-margin?lite" target="_blank">Source</a><br />
<br />
Everyone in North Carolina should be ashamed and embarrassed about this.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.theworldforgotten.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15"><![CDATA[Debate & Discussion]]></category>
			<dc:creator>Wraith</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2648</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA["Proportional" Representation]]></title>
			<link>http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2647&amp;goto=newpost</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2012 20:05:19 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[Without discussing the politics of the country for which I've just started another thread, I've long opposed any move to PR voting systems. I believe...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>Without discussing the politics of the country for which I've just started another thread, I've long opposed any move to PR voting systems. I believe some here do agree with them, but can anyone endorse this method?<br />
<br />
The ND party in Greece has just been humiliated by the voters. It's votes collapsed from 33.5% of the vote to 18.5%. The outcome? It's number of seats has gone up from  91 to 108. <br />
<br />
Does anyone think that makes sense?<br />
<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_legislative_election,_2012" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_l...election,_2012</a></div>

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			<dc:creator>RandBlade</dc:creator>
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